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New Guy W/New Scope

10K views 68 replies 17 participants last post by  116thAHC 
#1 ·
Hello. I recently picked up a 10/22TD and discovered that my 68 year old eyes don't work the same as they used to, despite cataract surgery last year. I used the iron sights on my first visit to the range and didn't do that bad other than having to keep the target closer than anyone else and seeing a fuzzy target even at close range. I'll probably continue indoor range use so bought a Simmons scope and they put it on and bore sighted it. 2nd range visit today and couldn't hit any target I aimed for. Stopped the fun and went into the store area and the asked the kid that sold me the scope for help. He did some major adjustments to the scope and shot about a dozen rounds. His last two shots were bulls eyes. Mine after the adjustments were very straight but at least 6 inches low. Made an appointment to get some training next Tuesday, my next range day.

I shot a Mossberg .22 almost every weekend as a kid; target and varmints and M14 M16 and M60s as a Crew Chief/ Door Gunner in RVN. Now I've regressed to trainee! Anyone else have trouble learning to use a scope? Thanks.
 
#29 ·
I have been patient and have had three range employees work on setting up the Simmons scope with little result. While cleaning after the last range visit I noticed that the scope had walked forward enough that the front ring was off the rail. It wouldn't move by hand and seemed very securely held in place by the rear ring. Had it moved and tightened at the range today but it moved forward and was almost off the rail again. They put a set of Leupold Rifleman Rings on and said that should fix it.

I spent most of my range time fine tuning the scope and actually saw some positive results in accuracy. Went over the Simmons instructions online several times over the weekend and just took my time with the adjustments. Target hits were much higher than the prior weeks.

I was also lucky enough to be able to pick up two bricks of ELEY Aguila ammo from a small shop a few miles north of here. So far no problem with any brand of ammo. Some are cleaner than others and the 10 round is the only legal one allowed in NY, so we don't have issues others are having with higher capacity mags. I really love the 10/22.
 
#32 ·
While cleaning after the last range visit I noticed that the scope had walked forward enough that the front ring was off the rail. It wouldn't move by hand and seemed very securely held in place by the rear ring. Had it moved and tightened at the range today but it moved forward and was almost off the rail again. They put a set of Leupold Rifleman Rings on and said that should fix it.
Wassup Hornet! Your patience index is indeed impressive.

I failed to note the brand/style of your rail and the first set of rings that were installed on your receiver, how the all of hardware to date was installed, and by whom.

But regardless, I'm struggling to visualize the degree of forward movement involving in rail-ring-scope system that you described unless your hardware is 1) defective, 2) mismatched, and/or 3) improperly mounted at more than one point. If the new set of Leupold rings has not resolved the accuracy issue to your satisfaction then perhaps a qualified second opinion on the mechanics of your hardware setup is in order.

Considering all of the variability that you've experienced to date I would concentrate on establishing reproducibility of POI for any given fixed POA after confirming that all hardware (rail, rings, scope) is securely mounted if you are still not satisfied.

These are just a few 2¢ thoughts that might help simplify your pursuit of accuracy. The first thing I would do is ditch graphically complex and potentially distracting targets which I do not believe do the eye-brain-finger axis any favors.

My favorite "range" targets have for years been Birchwood Casey's unmarked 18" square flat black splatter paper
and Birchwood Casey's 1" flat black splatter repair pasters.

Once your rifle is setup to where it will impact/splat the 18" square near the approximate center of the square, take a single shot and let that bright colored splat become your POA. Don't worry yet about refining your zero. Then fire a group from your stable platform using that initial splat as your "bullseye" and assess for consistency of POI using the original POA several times over. If everything is tightened down and sequential POIs vary significantly based on the same initial POA then you have an ongoing problem. If the group's POIs are tight then perhaps you are ready to go to your turrets to refine your zero.
 
#30 ·
116th there is a thread here on the forum just on your situation what scopes work with the 10/22 Take Down you might want to go over there its probably in the optics section or the 10/22 section of the Ruger Forum but there is a list of scopes & mounts that have worked on the 10/22 Take Down model good luck and again welcome to the Ruger Forum!
 
#33 ·
Critterdoc, I have had to work very long and hard on my patience and have replaced my former hair trigger with determination and persistence. Being in the service was a blessing and a real learning experience for me, I'll never regret it.

After being frustrated with my eyes ability to focus correctly; it was either the sights or the target, not both, I purchased a Simmons 22 mag scope. The range has a max shooting distance of 50 yds and this is my prime shooting place. I used the standard rail included with the 10/22 td and the rings included with the scope. Range personnel installed both items. I noticed the position of the scope during last weekend's cleaning session. The scope couldn't be moved by hand and the front ring was off the rail. Range personnel repositioned the scope and recommended a ring change. I used it for another shooting session and it had again moved forward, nearly off the rail. I had the rings replaced with a set of Leupold Rifleman rings and I notice that it looks like Loctite was used to secure the screws. I won't see if this fixed the problem until next week's session.
 
#34 ·
Well my friend, I'll keep all of my parts crossed. I'm still not clear on how the front ring base moved forward beyond the forward end of the rail if it was properly torqued down on the scope tube especially if the rear ring was likewise attached to the aft end of the scope tube and the aft end of the rail.

I'm sure there are many folks here that know a lot more than I about 10/22 accessories but the first thing I did was toss out the factory rail and replaced it with a picatinny rail and a set of really nice Warne QD rings.

What explanation did the 'range personnel' give you for the movement? Can you actually see spillover of loctite? What color?

Were you there when they installed the rail to the receiver and the mounts to the rail and scope tube? Is there a chance that they stripped out the screws. I'd be sure to check out the rail attachment to the receiver but take care not to test it by over-torquing the mounting screws.
 
#35 ·
Critterdoc, I know that they used Loctite on the 10/22 rail installation. The rail is secure and they didn't have much to say other than recommending the new rings. Like I said, the max distance I intend to shoot is 50 yards so I wasn't interested in a scope with 100 plus yard capability. The $39 Simmons gives me a clear view of the target and it's pretty basic. I'm even getting pretty good at fine tuning it. I watched part of the attachment process as most of the work was done in their "employees only" shop. Checking it at home I noticed what looks like a smear on the back side of the rings. Looks like the shine of adhesive, not red or blue, just clear and reflective. We will see what happens next range day.

Jim
 
#36 ·
If you change scopes a lot a bore sighter is a great help. I have an old bushnell bore sighter and to change scopes just put the bore sighter in the bore and write down the cross hairs on the grid of the sighted in scope and change scopes and dial the new scope to the old scope settings. I have done this many times and the rifle with the new scope is within an inch or 2. First time on a new rifle and new scope you will be within 6" at 100 yds. Saves a lot of ammo.
 
#37 ·
From an engineer\ring view point trying secure the receiver and floated barrel with one small screw is about the worst choice possible. The one mounting point creates a pivot point for a lever. As Archimedes said give me a lever and I can move the world (a rather loose quote). A stable design would have 2 on the receiver and a barrel band or post on the bottom of the barrel to anchor it. To free float the barrel requires a robust receiver structure that does not exist and a much more secure barrel location system that also does not exist in a 10/22. The answer is to have a receiver that uses 2 mounting points and at least 50% thicker and 150% would not be too much. I would picture the current mounting position and then one at the rear of the receiver set into the stock with a barrel clamp that has at least 2 bolts clamping the barrel much more secure. Flame away at me! Just use engineering when you do.
 
#39 ·
There is bore sighting and then there is bore sighting. Corbs44 makes an excellent point on bore sighting devices, which can be had for 46 bucks at Amazon. Check out the vid on one-piece LaserLyte T6 aluminum Bore Sight here. They tend to be battery hogs if you leave the button cells installed but otherwise mine has served well for years. Keep extra cells on hand.

Besides the obvious advantage of getting rounds on paper quickly when setting up a scratch zero, they make it easy to confirm that optics are holding zero and that the receiver-mount/rings and optical devices are maintaining their proper attachments. As an example, the reticle/laserdot relationship with my 10/22 does not change when I apply forces from various directions when the rifle is firmly fixed which gives me some confidence that the hardware I am using is up to the task. The same cannot be said when force is applied to my barrel (no surprise) which reinforces what ddahlgren said above.

As an added advantage, most cats and some dogs enjoy red-dogging to kill-the-demon-dot when walls or floors are illuminated with the serious caveat that one should take care to never beam any retina - none - even with these relatively low power Class III devices.
 
#40 ·
Today was the first chance to shoot some targets since the new rings were installed. I fired three test rounds and found the accuracy was pretty terrible. Started adjusting the scope and noticed that the crosshairs were way off. Took the receiver end to the desk and they found the scope barrel was installed twisted to the right and fixed it and re-bore sighted the rifle. I asked how close it should be and was told it should be pretty close. It was better than my first three shots but still off more than I expected. I had reviewed my scope manual and visited the Simmons website to get more insight. I had misunderstood how many clicks equal 1 inch of adjustment on a 25 yard target. I thought it was 8 clicks when it was actually 64. Actually made the process a lot longer but now I understand the process which I was told that I'll have to do every time I change brands/rating of ammo. I can't imagine that there's much of a drop shooting at 25 yards. Slight scope adjustments should be easy now

Bottom line: I did get the scope correctly adjusted near the end of today's session. The process took a lot longer than I anticipated but I did learn something new.
 
#41 ·
Suggest confirming the specs on your scope, your math, and whoever it is that is running the desk that has been installing your hardware and providing technical advice.

I'm assuming that one click equals 1/4" at 100 yards for your scope, so at 25 yards each click should yield 1/16" inches of adjustment, or require 16 clicks to move your POI 1 inch.

Another thing that has been nagging me dates back to 03-SEP when you mentioned that somebody applied Loctite at one time or another during installation. For one reason or another, Ruger advises that Loctite not be used when installing a rail to the receiver - perhaps to get them out of the loop in the event that the bonding agent drips down into the receiver and onto the bolt. I had an "uh-oh" moment when you said that "they" had used Loctite on your "rail installation" - liberally enough on your rings for you to see evidence of spill over. One thing I would suggest is that you inspect the inside of your receiver, your bolt, your bolt handle and recoil spring assembly, and the internal aspect of the receiver's tapped screw holes for Loctite spillover. Did you remove and then reinstall the bolt and recoil spring assembly when you previously cleaned the rifle? If not you might want to first review several youtube vids on removal/reinstall because reinstall can be tricky and frustrating for some 10/22 novices.
 
#42 ·
Doc, As I understand it One click equals 1/8" at 100 yards for my scope and I figured 32 clicks to move the POI one inch for a 25 yard target. The range personnel told me 64 clicks were needed. Still confused but know that it took a lot of clicks to get to where it is now. The manufacturer uses a general instruction, covering a couple scopes, so it get confusing.

When I noticed that the scope wasn't positioned correctly yesterday I took it to the desk and they confirmed that they used Loctite when installing the rail but not on the rings. They said that if I needed to change the rail I'd need to heat the receiver. I found a rail that has a slot down the middle that allows use of the original sights. They adjusted the scope's position easily and I'll clean the back of the rings to see if the smear comes off.

Jim
 
#45 · (Edited)
Who said one click equals 1/8" at 100 yards, the guys at the desk? Simmonsoptics.com specs the click value for your scope at .25 inches at 100 yards or one click to move your POI 1/4 inch quarter inch at 100 yards. In my mind that means that the adjustment would/should be quadrupled at 25 yards where it will take four clicks to move impact 1/4 inch at 25 yards. If that is the case then 1 click should/would also product a shift of 1/16 inch which equates to 16 clicks to shift the POI 1 inch.

Why don't you call Simmons/Bushnell Customer Service at 800-423-3537 in the morning and get that issue straightened out for yourself for more reasons than one. Looking back over your tortuous journey with this new rifle suggests that most of your problems might directly link back to the guys at the desk. I do not want to rain on your parade any more than has already happened but I flashed a brain farkel when I read our comment that they advised that you would need to use heat to remove the rail from the receiver. That likely means that they used red Loctite and in my not so humble opinion that was the wrong thing to do on that relatively soft aluminum receiver. Some will take issue but red Loctite is for last gasp repairs and properly applied blue is all that most of us mere mortals will ever need for jobs like that.

Now that leads to additional questions: where did you purchase the rifle and the scope. If it was from "The Desk" then it might be tempting to take the gun back and tell them to "melt off" the red Loctite and remove the rail themselves, but then again if it was me I would pack it up and get the heck out of Dodge before any more harm is done - unless of course they know their stuff and did everything right from the git-go.

You sound anxious to get out and start enjoying your new guy while regaining your skills. But it might be a good idea to hurry up and slow down a bit while giving some thought to whether or not there is a reputable gun store of gunsmith in your area that you could visit with and discuss alternatives and to make sure your gun is set up properly. I took the liberty of googling resources in your area and found that Buffalo Arms has 7/7 positive reviews.

Last for tonight - here's the Tactical Solutions 1-Piece Picatinny-Style 15 MOA Elevated Base I mounted on my 10/22.

EDIT: when I wrote this reply last nigh I listed the first "0 MOA" Picatinny rail I ordered for my 10/22 before I considered how far out I might to zero. A zero MOA rail should be fine for the distances you want now but you might need to ramp it to allow zeroing at 100 yards or beyond in the future.
 
#46 ·
Interesting couple days of research, including the library of this forum. Blue Loctite was mentioned as a necessary part of rail installation. I'll check if they used red or blue at the range.

Buffalo Arms is only a couple miles from me and I've noticed that they advertise .22 ammo for sale. It's a very small shop but nice and neat. Nice selection of rifles, shotguns and pistols. Everything was spotless. They had lots of .22 ammo and will continue to support them. All prices were reasonable and they just do sales and some educational classes. Saves me a lot of driving but our counties in NY all have different rates. The two bricks I bought today were $8 higher (total) than the same purchase 30 miles north of here.

Called Simmons customer support and got lots of info. My scope has "c" dials, each click moves the impact 1/8" at 50 yards. Clicks double for a 25 yard target. My 10/22 was shooting 6" low and 6" to the left after the scope barrel was repositioned and the rifle was bore sighted. Every time range personnel did the fine tuning they would tap the adjustment knob because they felt new scopes adjusters were tight. Simmons said the only reason the knobs would need to be tapped is if something was wrong with the scope. Each adjuster needed around 96 clicks. Simmons offered to replace the scope at no charge but suggested that I take it somewhere else for bore sighting.

I suspect the bore sighting too and since my last shoots were on target I'll give it one more chance next Wednesday.
 
#47 ·
There are multiple avenues for approaching the math but you seem to have it right now. Sometimes I think we tend to pay too much attention to the details of clicking, especially early in the game. Just get that sucker on target and start playing with clicks in reasonable increments to get a feel for how your turrets work. Again, I suggest that you pick up an electronic LaserLyte T6 aluminum Bore Sighter and start doing your own boresighting and your own "fine tuning". My laser boresighters will easily paint a clearly visible red dot on objects that are between 100 and 25 yards from my porch (especially after sundown) and they've all worked very well on multiple rifles, pistols, a Vepr 12 gauge, as well as the trusty 10/22.

What brand and subbrand/model of ammo did you buy, how many rounds, and how much did it cost?
 
#48 ·
Since the 10/22 is the only rifle I have I don't think I need a bore sight. I do have a Mossberg 500 for home defense, But I haven't fired it and hope I never have to. I think I'm near where I wanted to go with the 10/22 and just want to enjoy shooting targets.

I purchased two bricks (500 ea. ) of Remington 22 Thunderbolt 40 grain, HV, 1255 fps for $50 ea. Same price I paid for two bricks of Eley ultra high velocity ammo at a different dealer. I'll use up the Eley first then will need to adjust my scope due to the change of velocity, if needed. I should be an expert by then. Ha Ha.

We have a new Cabela's a few miles away and they have a line of buyers at the door at opening time and are sold out by 9:30 or so. Sales are limited to two small boxes or one large one. You never know what they will have.
 
#49 ·
I purchased two bricks (500 ea. ) of Remington 22 Thunderbolt 40 grain, HV, 1255 fps for $50 ea. Same price I paid for two bricks of Eley ultra high velocity ammo at a different dealer.
Ah-ha! Not exactly like the good ole days of penny-poppers as a kid on the farm with my beloved Mossberg 352 buzzard slayer kar-bean, but nevertheless better that it was just a year or two ago. Your cost/rd is about the same as I'd pay from local stores or pretty much any of the internet vendors I use.

What is the current enforcement level of the original #$%& rules for ammunition purchases under King Andrew's Safe Act - particularly the requirement that background checks be run on anyone wanting to purchase ammo locally. What a burn that would be to the squirrels who line up every morning to feed at the trough for crumbs at Cabelas as well as to the vendors themselves. If I recall that part of the legislation was suspended pending some type of "technology upgrades" for dealers, but most the goons in your legislature appear to be willing to hammer you folks at all cost. I was also curious about how local licensed dealers handle requests for delivery of out of state ammo shipments to them for pick-up by their customers.

I question the "necessity" of Loctite of any color for mounting accessories. Rather it seems more logical to cold mount then test for function & fit before committing to adhesives particularly when bonding into soft aluminum like the 10/22 receiver. As for the range, properly applied blue should not need to be put to the touch for removal.
 
#50 ·
NY State is tough on gun enthusiasts and most of the laws don't make sense nor will they keep criminals from getting "assault weapons". The rumor here is that after the election a second version of the Safe Act will be presented that proposes that all lever action rifles be included as antique assault weapons and be banned because they were used against Indians By Pioneers and Cowboys!

Dealers all handle ammo sales differently. The two dealers I bought bricks from seem above board and both seemed to have ample supplies. Others buy bulk and break it down into zip lock bags of 50. They throw in 2 extra bullets but charge a couple dollars more than other stores. The big box stores have better prices but limit sales amounts.

I started using the library on this forum and researched the Loctite issue here. consensus was that it's necessary to keep the rail secured to the 10/22. I'll be checking to see which version was used. Confirmation of this need was how quickly my scope walked forward and needed better rings to secure it.
 
#51 ·
New member here - (plus new to Ruger, new to .22, new to shooting!)

I'm in a similar position as the OP of this tread. Picked up a new 10/22 a few weeks ago and sighted-in the iron sights at 25 yds. Some minor adjustments to the rear sight and I'm getting good precision and accuracy.

But my "older" eyes need a bit of assistance. I picked up a Trushot 3-9x40mm scope with weaver mounting rings and plan on mating that to my rifle.

I look forward to researching the posts on this forum - I'm impressed with the helpful, community nature of rugerforum!
 
#52 ·
116th. I didn't read this entire thread but the scope your using is a cheap POS. You need something with preferably an adjustable AO. All my center fire scopes are Leapold's with adjustable AO or an AO that's suitable for the rifle. However I just built an air rifle and put a $60 Leapers scope on it with adjustable AO and I'm impressed.

BTW I'm older than you and I just had my cataract operation today! Danang 1968-69.
 
#53 ·
Wow some stupid gun laws in NY getting as bad as Kalifornia when it comes to guns. What's mentioned about lever rifles is a total joke!! Glad I live in Utah. Sounds like you have had lots of problems getting your scope set up on your 10/22! I have mounted all of my scopes & sighted them in, now it's easier since I bought a laser bore sighter from Cabela's
 
#54 ·
The only place my 10/22 will be used is the range. The two locations near me have a max length of 50 yards. I had difficulty with the scope set up due to it being my first scope, poor instructions on manual and just plain old age confusion. At the very end of last week's session I got it just right and was able to get most shots inside the 12 little targets on the sheet at 25 and 50 yards. The scope is inexpensive and pretty simple but does have what I need. This is a great forum and I value all the advice. Thank you all. Jim, Cu Chi 67-68
 
#57 ·
The only place my 10/22 will be used is the range. The two locations near me have a max length of 50 yards. Jim, Cu Chi 67-68
How's your zero holding up? I hope that no recent news is good news.

Do the ranges in your area offer outdoor options? Based on prior experience in the northern Poconos, I have to think that shooting outside on clear days in your area this time of the year would be about as good as it gets, especially if the location provided a taste of forest.
 
#58 ·
Thanks for asking. Scope is working fine. I use a sheet of twelve 3in targets, three per row. Last week I used the bottom six targets at the 25yd distance and the top six at 50yds. All shots at the 25yd distance were inside the targets, most of the 50yd shots were inside but not as near the center. The range, like all others I've seen around here doesn't have the greatest shooting bench to shoot from. If I use the rest it's so close to the right side that spent casings can bounce back on to my neck or arm. I can see how unsteady I am at 50 yds, it's like shooting at a moving target! I keep telling myself that if I were shooting at a bear I'd score 100 out of 100 hits! I'll Get there, that's the fun part.

No outdoor ranges here. Weather, especially winter is probably the main reason. Lots of outdoor shooting on my grandparent's little horse farm in Pa. I really miss that. It was like growing up in a Norman Rockwell painting.
 
#59 · (Edited)
Is it not cool when you sense that you can now make the Fat Lady start to sing! Good on ya.

I'm down in south Looziana where outside is a go almost every day. Range is right on the middle of Sugar Cane country - 30, 100 and 600 yards. All you can shoot $150/year. It's a good hours drive but worth the drive for what it offers.

Your horse farm takes me back to the bewitching days of childhood on a pristine working dairy farm in north LA and my trusty sidekick, a thirty-something dollar Mossberg 342 LR carbine! During those incredible years of perfect living I developed a passionate desire to kill a buzzard in a fair fight. Taking down that wary beast in a fair fight proved to be a major fail but the hard-earned nickname "Buzzard Bait" has fondly persisted all these years with peeps from the past. Memories of great food, purposeful critters, labors that produced, what seemed like unlimited ammo, and a target rich environment - and then I had to go and mess it all up by surrendering to pubescence and the realities of women. :D
 
#61 ·
Nice looking range, but seems pricey compared to the ranges down here. As far as I know indoor ranges in this area do not allow rifles over .22 calibers over .22 or handguns over .44 magnum. Anything goes at Palo Alto except .50 cal, full auto, and steel targets and targets on the ground are out of bounds. The only thing that would make PA better would be if it was within a 5 minute drive. I'd probably be out there to push 50 or so rounds every steenking day. When we go on weekdays we typically own the place during the morning hours.
 
#62 ·
Most comparable ranges here are priced about the same as this one. This one is only a few miles away and is usually not busy Tuesday and Wednesday. I tried using the Ruger bag once as a rest and will try it again, anything would be better than the plastic rest. Lately I'm seeing guys using high powered hunting rifles and a lot of .233 rentals.
 
#64 ·
Copy that. I'd imaging that zeroing/practicing deer sticks is big business for good reason but an active rental service for .223/5.56 sounds strange, especially if they are repeat renters. What do they charge for rentals of black rifles there?

You might find that a dedicated shooting bag will make a big difference from the "bench." My favorite commercial bag to date has been the low profile 5 chamber "butterfly" Uncle Buds Bulls Bag Bench Rest but if you are using extended magazines then the taller bags like the Caldwell Tackdriver might be easier to manage compared to raising the bag. Tube Socks filled with sand, unused :eek: cat litter, or rice also make quite functional DIU bags which can be readily stacked. A rice filled tube sock is my clear favorite for a rear bag where matching the volume of rice to the sock allows for raising and lowering the height of the "bag" with digital pressure as an aid to controlling elevation when adjusting POA. I've also seen sections of blue jean pant legs made into a functional 4-compartment bags when the compartments were sown together like this with each compartments made adjustable with velco secured flaps.
 
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