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Trail Boss Help

11K views 110 replies 26 participants last post by  DrHenley 
#1 ·
Hey Fellow Rugernauts! I'm new to the Forum and to reloading. My question for all of you is I've been using Trail Boss for reloading .38 Spcl and .45 Colt. Since it's such a forgiving powder, does it really affect accuracy or performance if my weights are off by 10ths or 100ths of a grain? Ex: for a 200gr .452 bullet, TB calls for a starting charge of 5.5grains, but when I'm trying to knock these loads out before my kids have a meltdown, sometimes I'll scoop 5.56, or 5.7grains and call it good. Am I wrong in this?
 
#93 ·
NON-HANDGUN NOTE: Spoke with a helpful fella at Hodgdon about both TB & H4895 in large Rifle cases. Turns out, the one I am more interested in trying first is their 40% reduced H4895 'STARTING LOAD' formulae(from their LISTED loads & COMPONENTs, incl. a jacketed bullet). In modern guns & calibres IS BEST he said.

Had not tried that one but probably will this Fall or after hunting season, but need to plug in numbers for a QuickLOAD forecast first, just to make sure its in ballpark of interest. Its possible burn % may be low though - yet it is a bolt gun so not too worried about a 'gumming up the action' aspect, tho it may be wasteful of powder. Still, IF accurate, perhaps an occasional hunting situation where can use another 'levergun' velocity load (in a more solid scoped BOLT gun action) as opposed to a TB load - which may be more like a 'trapdoor velocity' load.

Noticed a H4895 load listed for 375 Ruger, which dont have but thought interesting. If had, would call again on that since much lower case capacity but have thought that calibre interesting in past, given its smaller case.

They gave me some tips on TB too, in a large Rifle case (as that is what am stuck with in my safe)... in case I ever want to try. But they could not offer me anything using IMR4227, which is another interest of mine, before using TB.

HANDGUN NOTE:
As far as any other loads with TB, like in handgun, I will call and pick their brains first... maybe call a few times.

Thoughts on this forum are awesome too. How does the saying go.... stimulating conversation, pleasant association etc.
 
#94 ·
SA45, Here's some more stuff to stimulate the conversation …. powder burn efficiency, meaning a powder that totally burns up, is usually not the best choice for accuracy or velocity. As an example, it takes about 15" of bullet travel to burn up W-296. When used in a magnum revolver with a short barrel (under 4") it will still produce higher velocities and better accuracy than most other powders that are more "efficient". There are two side effects when using powder that don't completely burn up …. one being a huge muzzle flash, which is a negative. The other requires some brain stimulation …… it's pressure regulation. What happens when your barrel is shorter than the distance it takes for a complete burn is …. about the same amount of powder will get burned in a given barrel length so if your powder drop isn't perfectly consistent, it really doesn't matter because muzzle velocity will remain very consistent, as will accuracy. With mid-burn rate powders, if you do everything right, you can usually keep velocity spreads under 50 fps. With slow burning W-296, it is very common to see max velocity spreads in signal digits, which also makes accuracy pretty tight.

Years ago, I got on a "reduced power" kick with a couple of my centerfire rifles, a 7x57mm and a 30-'06. At the time SR 4759 was available and was designed specifically for reduced power rifle loads. I could reduce muzzle velocity by about 50%, which reduced recoil about the same amount. Although it was more pleasant from a recoil perspective, that was about the end of the benefits. Reduced velocity also reduces bullet spin rate by an equal amount so bullets don't stabilize at distances much past 100 yards …. in fact heavier bullets would keyhole at 100 yards. After working up some loads, I came to the "what am I trying to prove?" conclusion. If I want to shoot reduced power loads, why not use a rifle that produces less recoil yet is very accurate and cheap to reload. Thus began the saga of my Remington 700 BDL, chambered in 243 Win. Later I added a Rem 700 in 223 Rem for even less recoil and even cheaper reloading costs. I haven't loaded a reduced power cartridge since then.
 
#96 ·
IOWAGAN. Good stuff and on powder burn %. You are correct, my w296 loads have always been great in FA & Ruger 44, have not tried powder in rifle. Used H110 in 90s.

Back to Rifle loads: Have not tried my accurate reduced 405g load beyond 100yrds in 460, at about 1850fps with 4198.

The rate of twist is in range of lower 458mag vel., so will see with 405g at longer range, if it will in fact keyhole. A side note, did not try a case FILL material since not suggested in manual, Lyman has done so when needed for reduced loads in past.

Rifle is accurate long range with 540g GC & 350g Hndy at lower-end regular loadings. Chamber does have recommended free bore which also helps psi regulation early on, even with long nose 540g. Have never used Factory Ammo, too hot IMO, tho rifle smith said it would be fine, never was interested in such a volitile loading.

I doubt a TB loading would do well as you previously illustrated, nor in 450 Washburn wildcat chamber, which also has 458 wm range rate of twist. Almost got into 450 G&A with no belt years ago, probably should have instead of huge case.

I still may get a .243 or .223 to go with BDL .270. BTW, I also really like semi-auto Ruger Ranch rifle .223, nostalgic action & neat piece of engineering. Have considered a BLR in .243, with its cool rotating lever bolt.
 
#95 ·
My brain is still chewing on above, but real quick... I got to shoot both .243 & .257 a bit in 80's and loved them! I think .243 is also one of the coolest looking cartridges ever. Still shopping for Bolt .223 BTW.

My saga on Big cases is long, part novelty & part need, part 1st of Wildcat projects, and when raising young kids found the best deals I could on brass cases & guns collecting dust around the state, before making choices on chambers. Recoil was non issue in 30s.
 
#97 ·
Welcome. I like TB, and use it in 44mag & 357. I use it to load light lead loads for each. I've found that if you get picky with the load, you can get some really accurate loads. I load a 158gr LSWC, .357 that kicks like a mouse, and makes me look good when the targets come back. I'm still working to find the best 44 load for my S&W 69.

That being said, for me, TB has two great perks. One is that it fills more than half the case, with my loads so there's some extra insurance for double charges and it's really easy to see in the case. I check and double check my powder loads. The other is that it seems to perform pretty well for lighter practice lead loads, without getting too dirty.
 
#99 ·
Sloppy practices breed sloppy habits. Eventually you're doing some marginal stuff and "boom".

Trailboss is not forgiving with compressed loads. I was counseled many times by different people to avoid compressed loads with it.

I try to be very precise with some things. Measures is one of them.
 
#100 ·
Hi everyone, I have been following this discussion with great interest. I have been reloading 9mm and .45acp for a year and a half. I just started reloading for 357 Magnum and have been using trailboss on the recommendation of a friend. I have been using Lee's modern reloading as a guide for 158gr LSWC. and have been pretty happy with it so far. But I have no experience shooting a 357 magnum except for the six factory rounds shot the first time I bought the gun.
I am getting conflicting info here on this forum and elsewhere:
- Hogdon says Mark the base of the bullet on the case and fill to this line, this is your max load. 70% of this is your min load
- bwinters says if I am loading trail boss the first time I measure how much a full case will hold and use 85% as a beginning load
- Iowegan says IMR (Trail Boss manufacturer) actually recommends a procedure for max loads, which is to load to 85% of case capacity so there is still about 15% free space inside the loaded cartridge. 15% is actually a safety factor, just in case you drop a slightly heavy powder charge.

What is a newbee to do? I guess Iowegan's statement seems to be the safest
 
#102 · (Edited)
mk3, A typical 357 Mag case has a capacity of 4.9gr when a 158gr SWC is seated. That means 4.9gr is a max load and 85% of 4.9gr is a starting load, which is about 4.2gr. That said, 4.9gr only produces about 15.7k psi so it would be very safe in a cartridge rated at 35 k psi. Trail Boss gets wormy when powder charges are compressed so don't load more than 4.9gr. 4.9gr of TB with a lead 158gr SWC only produces about 875 fps from a 6 1/2" barrel. If you want full velocity magnum loads, you will need to use a much slower burning powder like W-296. Also, if you want to use jacketed bullets, find a different powder because Trail Boss doesn't work well with anything but lead bullets.
 
#104 ·
Mark204, Trail Boss is almost a "one of a kind" powder with some strange characteristics. The chemical formula is much the same as a slow burning magnum powder, however due to the large exposed surface area of the donut shaped kernels, it burns more like a fast burning powder. This bulky for weight powder has a very low starting pressure, which is why it isn't suitable for jacketed bullets that take considerably more pressure for bullets to engrave. Trail Boss pressure peaks in about 1.3" of bullet travel which resembles slow burning magnum powder, however because of the large surface area, it burns up in 2.3" of bullet travel, which resembles fast burning powders. In comparison, Bullseye (a very fast burning powder) peaks in about 1/2" of bullet travel and burns up in about 2" of bullet travel. W-296 (a very slow burning magnum powder) takes about 1.5" of bullet travel to reach peak pressure, however it takes about 15" of bullet travel to burn up. When Trail Boss is compressed, it will literally go ballistic and produce very high chamber pressure.

So to answer your question, no, 4.9gr is not pushing it at all. If you look in the ultra conservative Hornady manual, you will find a 38 Special load with a 158gr lead bullet with 4.1gr of Trail Boss, rated at 750 fps from a 4" barrel. It develops about 11.7 k psi in a SAAMI chamber designed for 17k psi. That's just .1gr below the starting load for a 357 Mag, which produces about the same pressure, despite having more case capacity. As I noted above, the Trail Boss max charge of 4.9gr only produces about 15.7k psi in a 357 Mag case with a 158gr lead bullet, which isn't even half of it SAAMI max chamber pressure rating of 35k psi.

The reason why Trail Boss loads are so low pressure is not because of the max chamber pressure it generates like most other powders …. it's because of it's application as a low velocity "cowboy" load with low recoil yet excellent accuracy and clean burning. This combination of attributes is virtually impossible with normal fast burning powders. I normally recommend "going by the book", however after this powder was first released, there was so much disinformation you just didn't know what to believe. Now the labs have done vast amounts of pressure testing and found much of the origional information about Trail Boss just wasn't accurate. I was a "nonbeliever" for a couple years then proof trumped disinformation.
 
#106 · (Edited)
I'm a big fan of reduced recoil loads. I cannot make Trail Boss work to save my life, and I'm still working off a keg of SR4759. Once that was out of production, I added Accurate 5744 to the mix, and have had good results with that. For example, one of my good reduced loads in Jap 7.7 is the sierra Pro Hunter (2305) 125 gn bullet over 27 gn of AA5744. This is good for 2,100 fps, and was my most accurate load. As a side note, the Japanese rifles tended to have over large chambers for ease of loading ??? and in any case, in my rifle, reduced loads only work with fire formed cases because otherwise there is insufficient pressure for the case to seal, and there is blow by. Those of us who enjoy reduced loads have plenty of company. Speer manual 13 has reduced loads for nearly half the cartridges. Current Western Powder load data contains a handful of reduced loads. The Richard Lee Modern Reloading first edition contains an extensive discussion complete with tables of reduced loads using several powders, and apparently all worked out directly with the original owners of Hodgdon (perhaps without the help of the legal staff) - these ostensibly to help folks casting their own lead bullets and wanting to keep the pressure within acceptable ranges.

I note lesser known "Shooters World" branded powder (US distribution of Czech LOVEX) Buffalo Rifle is very similar to AA5744 and also works much better than Trail Boss and is a good bit less expensive.
 
#107 ·
I can't get a Quickload match even close to Hodgdon data.

Using Trail Boss as an example, Hodgdon provides this load:

Bullet: 125 grain LRNFP for 38 Special
Trim Length: 1.145"
OAL Length: 1.445"
Barrel: 7.7"
3.0 grains is 753 fps and 11,600 psi
5.3 grains is 952 fps and 13,400 psi

No seated depth or bullet data is specified by Hodgdon

I cannot get a Quickload profile anywhere close to these numbers.
If I play games with the 3.0 grains load, then the 5.3 grains load is much too high.

The drawing I used for the Lyman mold gives sufficient measurements to find the seating depth.
That is why I used it as an example.

Missouri #17 LRFNP in 125 grains measures 0.306" from base to cannelure.
Plugging the Missouri bullet data into Quickload isn't any closer to the Hodgdon load data.

Without knowing the Hodgdon seated depth, I have no clue how to set up the Missouri bullet with Trail Boss.
I could start at the Min charge, and chrono my way up to the Hodgdon velocities.
This seems error prone.
 
#108 ·
-Chrono is an extremely important tool IMO.
-QL for me is a secondary tool to Chrono but always 'best' to use both. QL is a forecasting model where Chrono, if accurate, is 'actual' data.
-Have had more issues w/ matching Hodgdon tables 'early-on' than some of others but has depended on both loadings & calibers too.
---------------------
-Another option to look at is H20 capacity of case used vs Hodgdon's case used vs QL's default value for case capacity. But accurate dims of all components are critical.
-There are other values that are ALSO adjustable in QL but lots of research can and should be involved on a number of these.

Have found that QL is NOT necessarily a 'data entry-turnkey' type application. For me it is a research aid - among other things.
 
#111 ·
Trail Boss seems to be relatively insensitive to small variations. More so than other powders. I've used it in a number of cartridges, including a match load for 45 ACP. Hodgdon's published max load on their web site with a 230 grain LRN meets the CDP Power Floor for IDPA.
 
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