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Hornady Concentricity Gage

This is a discussion on Hornady Concentricity Gage within the Reloading forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all I do not have any benchrest rifles. I would like to know if this Hornady Concentricity gage would help enough on ...


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Old February 14th, 2010, 04:06 PM   #1
 
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Hornady Concentricity Gage

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First of all I do not have any benchrest rifles. I would like to know if this Hornady Concentricity gage would help enough on standard loads for my rifles to make a difference in moa to justify buying it? I like to get the best out of my rifles but with a standard hunting rifle is this really going to help or not worth the effort? I know I can play with loads and get good groups.I have thought about this and also neck trimmers but did not know the best way to go or even if I should mess with it unless I get or build a truly target style rifle?
Thanks for help
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Old February 14th, 2010, 06:01 PM   #2
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roc1, A couple of very good questions .... Neck turning first. With standard production rifles, neck turning is usually counterproductive. The concept for neck turning is to make the neck brass a uniform thickness. As a cartridge is fired, brass actually flows forward and makes the neck thicker in some areas and thinner in others. This is unavoidable and happens with all bottle neck rifle brass. Before it will help much, you need a match grade chamber that is cut very tight. With standard productions rifles, the neck is quite generous so neck turned brass will expand beyond normal limits and usually split after one or two firings. With match grade chambers, the brass will last a lot longer because it doesn't over expand. So basically, neck turning is not going to get you much accuracy improvement except on the first reload.

A better solution is to anneal your brass every other time fired. This will keep the brass soft so the neck will expand and get the bullet started straight into the bore. Besides, annealed brass will last longer ... maybe a couple more reloads per case.

I don't own the Hornady Concentricity gage but I do have an RCBS Case Master (not as good as the Hornady unit) that does the same thing. You can test each case after sizing and again after seating the bullet to check for "runout". If the max runout is over a couple thousandths, accuracy will suffer because the bullet is not squared up on the bore and gets damaged when 25 tons of pressure is applied. The closer you can get to zero runout, the better accuracy will be.

A case can get slightly skewed when sized because it is not entering the sizing die perfectly straight. This can be caused by crud accumulation in your shell holder that prevents the base of the case from centering or it can be caused by pulling the handle before the case has centered in the die. An easy way to prevent case skewing is to keep the slot in the shell holder clean then pull the handle down just until you feel the case start into the die. Lift the handle a little and allow the case to center up then pull the handle all the way down.

Seating bullets can cause a similar effect, especially if you load flat base bullets. When the bullet gets started, the case mouth will yield a bit more on one side and deform the case slightly. When you test for bullet runout, this will show up. A cartridge fired with excessive runout will cause bullet damage and will reduce accuracy. For flat based bullets, make sure you chamfer the case mouths before seating a bullet. This acts like a funnel to get the bullet started straight in the case. It is not needed with bevel base or boat tail bullets because they are tapered enough to start in the case without distorting the neck.

Based on the above, I would not recommend neck turning for a standard production rifle. I would recommend testing and truing your rifle loads with a Concentricity Gage if you are trying to get optimum accuracy.

Last edited by Iowegan; February 14th, 2010 at 08:51 PM.
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Old February 14th, 2010, 07:24 PM   #3
 
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Thanks Iowegan helpful info as always. I will get the case gage and forget about neckturning. I just wanted my Remmys and Ruger and all other rifles I own to shoot the best they could. I heard this does help and wanted info before buying it.
Thanks again
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Old February 28th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #4
 
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I use a Forester co-ax press, and their seating dies. The press centers the case when the jaws close on the rim, and the good seating die centers both the bullet and the case. I get trued loads every time. Good shooting, Gary
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Old February 28th, 2010, 07:09 PM   #5
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madderg, You might be surprised if you check your rifle cases and loaded cartridges for runout. Sometimes the case is not concentric, which causes the bullets to seat slightly askew. No press in the world will cure this ailment.
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 09:02 PM   #6
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
roc1, A couple of very good questions .... Neck turning first. With standard production rifles, neck turning is usually counterproductive. The concept for neck turning is to make the neck brass a uniform thickness. As a cartridge is fired, brass actually flows forward and makes the neck thicker in some areas and thinner in others. This is unavoidable and happens with all bottle neck rifle brass. Before it will help much, you need a match grade chamber that is cut very tight. With standard productions rifles, the neck is quite generous so neck turned brass will expand beyond normal limits and usually split after one or two firings. With match grade chambers, the brass will last a lot longer because it doesn't over expand. So basically, neck turning is not going to get you much accuracy improvement except on the first reload.

A better solution is to anneal your brass every other time fired. This will keep the brass soft so the neck will expand and get the bullet started straight into the bore. Besides, annealed brass will last longer ... maybe a couple more reloads per case.

I don't own the Hornady Concentricity gage but I do have an RCBS Case Master (not as good as the Hornady unit) that does the same thing. You can test each case after sizing and again after seating the bullet to check for "runout". If the max runout is over a couple thousandths, accuracy will suffer because the bullet is not squared up on the bore and gets damaged when 25 tons of pressure is applied. The closer you can get to zero runout, the better accuracy will be.

A case can get slightly skewed when sized because it is not entering the sizing die perfectly straight. This can be caused by crud accumulation in your shell holder that prevents the base of the case from centering or it can be caused by pulling the handle before the case has centered in the die. An easy way to prevent case skewing is to keep the slot in the shell holder clean then pull the handle down just until you feel the case start into the die. Lift the handle a little and allow the case to center up then pull the handle all the way down.

Seating bullets can cause a similar effect, especially if you load flat base bullets. When the bullet gets started, the case mouth will yield a bit more on one side and deform the case slightly. When you test for bullet runout, this will show up. A cartridge fired with excessive runout will cause bullet damage and will reduce accuracy. For flat based bullets, make sure you chamfer the case mouths before seating a bullet. This acts like a funnel to get the bullet started straight in the case. It is not needed with bevel base or boat tail bullets because they are tapered enough to start in the case without distorting the neck.

Based on the above, I would not recommend neck turning for a standard production rifle. I would recommend testing and truing your rifle loads with a Concentricity Gage if you are trying to get optimum accuracy.
I just wanted to add my experience with the Hornady Concentricity device.

I picked up the Hornady today. I checked about 30 loaded .308 and 30 22-250 with the tiny 55 gr V-max and I found that I did have three with run outs at 5 mil but most were 1-2.

The thing I really like about it is the ability to reposition the bullet.

I thought, how in the hell does that post push the bullet?

Then I realized that it is simply bending a rod and in this case the only thing that can move is the bullet. That feature works very well.

Pretty nifty. I was thinking that I would buy it, find out that my bullets were perfect and just return it. Now, it is just one more step to accuracy.

It even works with 55 gr Vmax on my 22-250. Amazing.

I checked a Hornady .308 factory ammo just to see what they are selling... under 1 mil. Impressive to say the least.

Iowegan, I am a believer.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 06:04 AM   #7
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trentsmill, Your findings are about the same as mine ... seems about 10% of my loads have too much runout. What you just did was to eliminate 3 fliers from your 30 round batch.

The secret to accurate reloading is quite simple ... first, your bullet weights (length) must match the rifle's twist rate. Second, you must find a powder that will produce "factory velocities" and load to that velocity using a chronograph. Third, use good quality bullets. Last is using the best reloading techniques possible, which will also show up on a chronograph with minimal velocity spreads.

Reloading techniques include proper case sizing, trimming to uniform case lengths, trickling up each powder charge to the precise weight, and seating bullets to a uniform depth as noted in the reloading manual for your specific bullet. Once the cartridge has been loaded, check/correct any runout issues. Once you do these simple steps, you can tweak the load +or- a few tenths of a grain to get optimum accuracy for your specific rifle.

I've harped on "bullet damage" in several other posts and because it is so important, I'll do it again. Any time a bullet leaves the muzzle in something less than perfect condition, accuracy will suffer. Lets start with the bullet as it comes right out of the box.

Not all bullets are created equally. You will find "bulk pack" bullets are nothing more than factory seconds that have flaws. In most cases, bullet weight is not exactly as advertised nor is it uniform because there may be voids or air bubbles inside the jacket or possibly non-uniform jackets. With rifle bullets, a variance of just .1gr will cause groups to open up and of course the more variance in weight, the worse groups will open. Two issues with bulk bullets ... they are not perfectly balanced so they will literally whiffle down range. The bullet's spin rate will keep it stable for a certain distance but as spin rate decays from air friction, it will start to yaw and lose stability, which in turn opens up groups dramatically. The second issue has to do with maintaining uniform velocity for all cartridges in your batch. Why? Any change in velocity will cause torque from the rifling to change the bullet path horizontally. Changes in velocity will also cause vertical stringing due to gravity. A slight change in bullet weight will result a significant change in velocity. So ... with bulk bullets you get the "double whammy" when a change in velocity and an unbalanced condition exists. I call bulk bullets ... "pre damaged". Field grade (hunting) bullets are pretty good ... usually very uniform length and weight ... but not as perfect as match grade bullets.

The issue with cartridges being concentric is simple ... any bullet that enters the bore the slightest bit off center will cause some bullet damage, which in turn affects accuracy. The industry standards are .003" max runout (+or-.0015") for a 30 cal bullet. As bullet diameter changes, so do the runout specs ... .001" for each tenth of a caliber. So a .224" bullet should have no more than .002" total runout whereas as a large 40 cal could have as much as .004" runout. Any amount of runout will open groups so the tighter you can maintain runout, the better accuracy will be with any rifle.

The above strictly deals with ammo accuracy ... not with the rifle itself. Some things that affect rifle accuracy are: eroded throat, bad muzzle crown, poor bore, or barrel harmonics. Many rifle owners chase their tail when it comes to accuracy ... either trying all sorts of different powders and bullets or doing things like free floating or bedding a stock. Yes, all these things count but you must first find the source of your accuracy problems ... is it the rifle, the ammo, or both??? The best way to do this is to buy a box of factory ammo with bullet weights that match your rifle's twist rate. For most rifles, factory twist rates are pretty standard, however the trend with 223 Rem and 308 Win is to use heavier bullets and a faster twist rate .... so you need to do some homework before you buy ammo. If bullet weights are not matched to the rifle's twist rate, you can not expect stellar accuracy.

Assuming a rifle groups good with factory ammo as noted above, you should be able to meet or beat accuracy with your reloads. If factory ammo with matching bullet weights shoots poorly, you can bet there is something wrong with your rifle. If you take a shotgun approach and start changing both the ammo and modifying the rifle, likely you will just chase your tail. Further ... not all rifles are capable of 1 MOA accuracy, in fact the shooting industry standard is 2.5 MOA or better with the proper factory ammo. In most cases, production rifles will shoot better than 2.5 MOA .... but not always.

Accuracy rant off.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 07:43 AM   #8
 
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roc1 - "I would like to know if this Hornady Concentricity gage would help enough on standard loads for my rifles to make a difference in moa to justify buying it? "

It is $99. If you load 8 lbs of powder that is ~1400 rounds or 5 per round. Bullets are 35. I have spent about $1,200 on reloading gear. I hope to punch at least 10,000 holes in targets with this gear. That adds 12 per round. Cases are about 5 per round as well. So, my variable cost is about 57 per round. Adding $99 for 10,000 rounds is less than 1 per round.

I assume you reload to save money (farce) but most importantly to obtain the best accuracy possible. What kills me is having loose ends or things that I cannot control. When a pattern is bad or flyers happen, I always want to blame the shooter first. It is the one thing that I really cannot control however, the more I shoot the more confidence I get in my ability to put a bullet where it belongs and to know when I screwed up the shot.

I bought the best powder system, a great press, good dies (wish now I had paid more to get the match dies) and now have added the Hornady Concentricity Gage Tool.

I am now at a point where, if I follow Iowegan's suggestions, I am confident that those flyers are more me than ammo. The rifle is what it is. I am willing to live with that fact.

When I sit for hours waiting on a Ghog, the last thing I want in my head is the thought - a flyer now will have wasted my entire day. I am ok with missing if I mess up with aim, timing, not setting of the scope distance or not judging wind properly. I am not ok with a miss that could have been avoided weeks ago because I was in a hurry or took the attitude that this is "Good Enough".

I am making mistakes while I learn about reloading. These past months, I have shot more large bore bullets than I shot the previous 50 years. It is a challenge, a journey and you will never stop spending $$ on getting it better as there is always another bullet and another powder combo that may just be better. The journey is what is important not the finding the treasure. Then you will buy a new gun and the fun starts all over again.

The 1 is worth it. Even if you find every round to be perfect, because in my mind, shooting is about confidence first. That is why good shooters put tons of bullets in targets. It takes practice in the reloading room and on the range to get that elusive perfect grouping.

Not everyone is a perfectionist but not everyone should reload either. Take my X wife, please.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 09:19 AM   #9
 
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I had a Hornady Concentricity Tool for a while, sold it and bought an RCBS Casemaster which I like a lot better.

I also bought one of these to straighten loaded rounds, I also like it a lot better.

TT-Equipment-Index

Some rounds don't take much effort to straighten, but others seem to be almost impossible, requiring multiple pushes from different sides and I just couldn't help thinking that it was lessening the bullet tension in the neck to keep pushing on it. The TruTool pushes on the neck. Probably those cases are bent like a banana and should be discarded or used for practice rounds only.

Having said all that, it is much better to load rounds straight from the start. I've learned a couple of tricks which help. I started using Lee Collet Dies quite a bit and they work well, bushing dies are probably even better, but I haven't used them yet. It also seems to help with standard dies if you expand the neck on a separate operation from sizing, but it is more work:

1. Deprime with a universal decapping die.
2. Size the case with the expander removed.
3. Replace the expander and run the case into the die just enough to size the neck.

The LCD is easier.

I'm still learning.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 09:59 AM   #10
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of the Gael View Post

Having said all that, it is much better to load rounds straight from the start. I've learned a couple of tricks which help.
90% of my bullets are 0.002 or less in runout. I am not sure why the 10% are OOS as it must be a case issue. I use regular RCBS dies and I can live with this error rate now that I can fix them easily.

A plus for the RCBS is the ability to measure case inside runout and thickness.

Neck case runout correction is only changing where the thin and thick locations occur and I agree with IOWEGAN on case neck trimming. It is not the same as straightening the neck as happens with a die.

What I would find to be very time consuming with RCBS is to have to remove the case to make an adjustment that is not measurable and then repeat that process until you get it right.

The Hornady allows me to tweak a bullet to .001 if I choose to take that extra effort. With the gauge always reading the low spot, I can see exactly how much I moved it after release of the push rod.

IOWEGAN has the RCBS that he bought long before Hornady came out with their model. He stated that the Hornady was better too. He uses a steel plate to make small adjustments and a magic marker. The RCBS measures, it does not fix. Hard to compare the two units.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 10:38 AM   #11
 
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Glad the Hornady works for you, I'm not bashing it; I've just settled on things that work better for me.

The steel plate and Magic Marker are probably the same trick as the TruTool, the concept has been around for a long time, the guy making the TT is marketing a version of it.

Casemaster makes it easier to spot incipient head separations than the old paper clip trick, I like that. I also like that you can measure about everything on the case (length, concentricity, thickness, etc). And yes it is a pain to set up.

The way the Hornady is set up, it was about impossible to do anything with the little .22 Hornet rounds, .223, .308 & 7x57 worked much better. RCBS measures the Hornets fine since the bullet end is open.

At the time I had it, probably 95% of my rounds came out at .004" or less and I got them to .001 easily. Then there'd be that one that was .007 or more and I'd push it over and over and over again to get it to something more acceptable. As said above, the brass probably has a problem and should be segregated or discarded, but now I can get them straight easily enough. I should do a semi-scientific test to see if it will shoot with the stuff that comes out of the die straight or still produces larger groups. Something tells me it will.

Always on the quest.
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Old June 3rd, 2014, 11:05 AM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of the Gael View Post
Glad the Hornady works for you, I'm not bashing it; I've just settled on things that work better for me.

The steel plate and Magic Marker are probably the same trick as the TruTool, the concept has been around for a long time, the guy making the TT is marketing a version of it.

Casemaster makes it easier to spot incipient head separations than the old paper clip trick, I like that. I also like that you can measure about everything on the case (length, concentricity, thickness, etc). And yes it is a pain to set up.

The way the Hornady is set up, it was about impossible to do anything with the little .22 Hornet rounds, .223, .308 & 7x57 worked much better. RCBS measures the Hornets fine since the bullet end is open.

At the time I had it, probably 95% of my rounds came out at .004" or less and I got them to .001 easily. Then there'd be that one that was .007 or more and I'd push it over and over and over again to get it to something more acceptable. As said above, the brass probably has a problem and should be segregated or discarded, but now I can get them straight easily enough. I should do a semi-scientific test to see if it will shoot with the stuff that comes out of the die straight or still produces larger groups. Something tells me it will.

Always on the quest.
No problem, I am just sharing like you. I think these discussions are valuable.
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Old June 6th, 2014, 04:09 PM   #13
 
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I use and like the Hornady gauge. I use it on everything from .218 Bee(Ruger No.1) to my .300 Winchester mag I have not tried it with my Hornet yet. I also rotate each case,in the shell holder, 2-3 times when sizing, which for me is normally neck sizing. I use the RCBS Competition seating die and have found 0.00"-0.002 to be the norm with maybe 5% or fewer having greater run out. These are for hunting and casual serious target shooting.
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Old June 7th, 2014, 12:52 AM   #14
 
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In regard to spin rate decay, read more about it -- Sierra Manual pg. 1063-4, Edition V (McDonald & Almgren); then draw your own conclusions of what happens.

Also included in edition V is a description of the concentricity situation regarding bullet seating and case defects. The subject of squaring dies is also found in the manual.

Good barrels and bullets go a long way in assuring accuracy and in addition good loading techniques are essential. Common sense and a basic knowledge of how things work helps.

If it is crooked, sloppy, and inconsistent don't expect good results.

Last edited by BassMan; June 7th, 2014 at 01:43 AM.
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Old June 7th, 2014, 09:56 AM   #15
 
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My views on loading ammo may be subject to debate and disagreement but they have served me well for a long time.

All of my rifles have high quality barrels fitted by skilled smiths. I like Hornady bullets but Sierras are equally as good if not better. I guess I like the red bullet tips. High quality bullets from Berger, Sierra, Hornady, and Barnes, to me, are a must.

I use full length bushing dies having bushings less than .001 inch outside neck diameter of my loaded rounds that all have turned necks.

The necks are turned to remove the "donut" at the junction of neck and shoulder and also to make neck walls uniform and variances of more than .001 in neck wall thicknesses occur. Bushing dies don't remove the donut. All cases are full length sized every time to ensure easy feeding, reduce run out, and headspace is held to a minimum.

I trim all cases .01 less than max case length then chamfer the insides of the necks. Cases are annealed after every 4 firings; re-trimmed. Neck tension is more uniform as a result of turning and annealing.

I seat bullets using seat dies having a "floating" seater plug that closely matches the contour of the bullet.

I square the dies making the die align with the axis of the die ram rather than just locking it into the threaded hole in the body of the die that may not be exactly at a 90 degree angle with the axis of the die ram.

I don't usually weigh each powder charge preferring to use fine grain powders, usually temperature change resistant single base powders of small grain size - IMR 8208 is a favorite. Individual weighing of hundreds of charges for varmint (rodents) would be tedious. Fat bulky grains such as H1000 are weighed as these don't meter well and the rifles that use this stuff commonly are barrel burners and the quantity of ammo is minimal. I have obtained very good results on varmints using thrown charges of H4350, another favorite, but if I had to shoot in a match I would weigh each charge.

I try to be consistent in primer use - I like CCI, 450's, 200's, 43's, 34's, and 250's.

I label everything and try to keep good notes. When shooting at long range with H1000 and other large volume powder users I try to log each shot when shooting at the range, my photo like memory is not good enough. Spending lots of money on good barrels and skilled barrel fitting and then taking shortcuts that "dumb down" the results is not an option.

I read stuff that other folks smarter than my self have written namely Brian Litz.

Last edited by BassMan; June 7th, 2014 at 10:18 AM.
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