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Cylinder Marking Inside of Frame

This is a discussion on Cylinder Marking Inside of Frame within the Ruger Single Action forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; So I let this forum talk me into buying a Single Seven in .327 mag, right? And it turns out I like it. A lot. ...


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Old May 8th, 2017, 11:37 AM   #1
 
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Cylinder Marking Inside of Frame

So I let this forum talk me into buying a Single Seven in .327 mag, right?

And it turns out I like it. A lot. In fact, it now goes on every range trip and I just love launching those little bad boy magnums. With .32S&W Longs it just might be the most accurate pistol I own. It's easy to shoot nice tight little groups at 10 yards.

So, it's fired quite a few rounds. I haven't been counting but i know it's well over 500 rounds now.

And I noticed something...

Inside the frame, below the firing pin hole where the ratchet star touches there is an imprint of that ratchet star.

Yeah, I realize that there's literally tons of pressure right there when the thing fires. That cylinder gets forced into the frame under the same force the bullet has on impact, and it's concentrated in a very small area.

Should I worry? I've never seen this on any of my other Rugers. I would think that the smaller Single Six sized parts might make this more of an issue than found on a big Blackhawk sized gun because the impact is concentrated in a smaller area.



The cylinder doesn't look distressed.



You guys that shoot a lot of magnums think this is a problem?

I would guess the imprint is less than .005 deep. It doesn't seem to "Catch" or restrict the turning of the cylinder but I'm afraid it will if it goes any deeper.

Somebody tell me it's going to work harden and stay just like it is for a long, long time! I really like this little gun and it just wouldn't do if it wears out at 1000 rounds!




Last edited by Fast Frank; May 8th, 2017 at 11:52 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 05:29 PM   #2
 
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There is nothing to worry about. Most of my guns have those prints. And never gone any further than that.

And most of my guns, magnums for the most part, are well in excess of 15,000 rounds fired through them.

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Old May 9th, 2017, 07:07 AM   #3
 
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137 views and only one answer?

O.K. Then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Wright
There is nothing to worry about. Most of my guns have those prints.
That's what I was hoping to hear. Thanks!
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Old May 9th, 2017, 08:09 AM   #4
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Fast Frank, My opinion is a bit different. Those marks are caused by the cylinder slamming forward then rebounding. When I see these marks, it usually means the cylinder throats are too tight or there is excessive endshake, or both.

When a round is fired, the cylinder will move forward with the bullet as it tries to pass through the throat. If the throat is too tight, the cylinder really thrusts forward hard and literally bounces back, pushing the ratchet column into the recoil shield, which in turn causes the ratchet marks.

You will notice on your gun .... if you test endshake, it will be tighter when the cylinder is between chambers and looser when the cylinder throat is aligned with the bore. Endshake tends to grow as more rounds are fired .... until the revolver starts getting dangerous when the cylinder unlatches when fired. I would highly recommend you test your gun for excessive endshake and check all cylinder throats to make sure your bullets will pass through with just finger pressure. This is done by pushing the bullets nose first through the front of the cylinder. Make sure you test all throats. If bullets don't pass through with just finger pressure, you will need to have the throats reamed to the proper diameter. BTW, this is a common problem with Ruger revolvers.

To test endshake, use an automotive type gap gauge and find the thickest blade that will fit between the cylinder face and the rear of the barrel with the cylinder forced to the rear. Test again with the cylinder forced forward. Endshake will be the difference of the two measurements and should be no less than .002" and no more than .005".
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Old May 9th, 2017, 10:34 AM   #5
 
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Just looked at my 1970 Ruger Blackhawk ( 357 magnum) It has them also!
They don't get any deeper , I shoot mine a lot, it's the most accurate 357 I own .
I wouldn't worry about it , it's not going to hurt anything. My Blackhawk has at least 60,000 rounds through it over the last 40 years and still doing fine.
It's not a promblem unless you start obsessing about it. I never even noticed it untill you asked about it .....no problemo as Terminator Arnold would say!
Gary
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Old May 9th, 2017, 11:00 AM   #6
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gwpercle, Have you ever tested your Blackhawk for endshake or throat diameter? I have a "Liberty" Blackhawk in 357 Mag (made in 1976) that's had thousands of rounds of full power magnums run through it. It barely has a mark on the recoil shield. My endshake measures .003" and the throats measure .358". When I had my gunsmith shop, it was very common to see Ruger centerfire SAs with the ratchet marks on the recoil shield and in nearly every case, either endshake or throat diameters (or both) were out of spec. This doesn't mean you can't continue to shoot the gun but it does mean you need to keep a watchful eye on the indicators. If allowed to go out of spec, endshake will result in a dangerous situation plus it will result in misfires due to excessive headspace.

This condition is an indicator that something is wrong. I would expect to see a mark after thousands of rounds of magnums have been fired ... but certainly no deeper than what is shown in the OP's picture. With the OP's low round count (500), there shouldn't be anything more than a slight scuff mark with virtually no depth.
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Old May 9th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #7
 
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2 of 23 have marks..it appears to me the ratched lug is just a tad long...or was..the marks on both are faint.

One is as above my best shooter .357 OM 70's.... .004 cyl gap pushed hard fwd it is .001, there is also a pretty good print of the brass all around the recoil shield..

I didn't check the other one yet..it is a Convertable .45 NM.

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Old May 9th, 2017, 06:14 PM   #8
 
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Interesting conversation. Thanks for all the input!

I got out my feeler gauges. with the cylinder pushed all the way to the rear, I can get a .011" in there. it's snug.

With it pushed all the way forward, it's .005". That works out to .006" end shake. When you consider that the imprint appears to be near .005" deep, that would make the end shake very tight when this pistol was brand new and that's consistent with what I found on my initial inspection.

My dial caliper says that an American Eagle 100 grain soft point measures .306" above the cannelure. I suspect that it's larger inside the case. The SAAMI spec is .312".
This is the hot round I have been shooting. (Excuse the parallax. when viewed straight on it is .306")



The round drops easily into the front of the chamber.



The mouth of the chamber is .314".


The other side of the chamber is .339".

I'm thinking that throat size isn't the issue.

The SAAMI spec for this round is 54,000 psi, or 21,000 cup. That's a bad boy for sure and I wonder if it's maybe just a bit much for the Single Six sized gun

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Old May 9th, 2017, 06:22 PM   #9
 
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In the interest of science, I pulled one.



Yup. .312".



The pulled bullet will fall through the cylinder easily.
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Old May 9th, 2017, 06:54 PM   #10
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Fast Frank, It appears your cylinder throats are OK .... but endshake is NOT. Like most Ruger SAs, once endshake reaches .005", it will increase pretty fast .... especially with high pressure loads.

The 32 cal Single-Sevens are newer than my experiences so I don't have much shop time with 327 Mags, nor do I know if this is a common occurrence with these hot little buggers. So .... it would appear your high pressure loads are responsible for the ratchet column divots in the recoil shield. There's no known fix for this condition short replacing the cylinder frame or welding up a "boss" around the center hole in the recoil shield then machining it to spec. Shim washers won't work because it would obstruct the pawl slot in the recoil shield.

Meantime, enjoy your Single-Seven while you can. Endshake is already out of spec and eventually it could get dangerous so keep an eye on it. Ruger may be of some help .... what have you got to lose? Give them a call.
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Old May 9th, 2017, 07:31 PM   #11
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post

Meantime, enjoy your Single-Seven while you can.
Yeah, That's what I'm afraid of.

When I bought this little pistol I was thinking how cool it would be to have a Single Six with some horsepower.

It certainly lived up to that idea and offers the obvious advantages of a small pistol with a wide variety of loadings. Being the same as the Single Six I use to break in beginners is a bonus as well- they move up easily with nearly no hitch in their learning curve.

This particular pistol is a Lipsey's, and I'm afraid Ruger is going to say it's not repairable.

That means exchange.

I have been thinking that a .357/9mm convertible would offer similar versatility when loaded with the short .38 rounds, 9mm for cheap blasting, and .357 for when horsepower is needed. It wouldn't offer the small size ( My grand daughter) but it would still be a good "Medium Sized" handgun.

I hate to think that my Single Seven is dying, but it sure looks like it is.

Here it is with my Single Six







I'll contact Ruger and see what they say...
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Old May 9th, 2017, 11:40 PM   #12
 
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Fast Frank, man that sucks!!! Do you reload at all. If Ruger offered to repair or replace your Single Seven there is one thing you might try to get more life out of your Single Seven. Reload some rounds that are a tad less punishing then the American Eagle 100 grain .327 FM loads!!! My Ruger SP101 .327FM with a 3 inch barrel. When I first got my revolver I shot the AE 100 grain JSP .327 FM loads I thought Wow quite the hot load not enjoyable to shoot in a SP101!!! Like shooting .357 Mag loads in comparison!!! I bought some Starline Brass & bullets both brass & brass plated, also LSWC. I got some Lee .32 H&R Magnum dies. Then I worked up some reloads for myself to tame down the recoil. This worked out for me my SP101 still has some bark to it but hey the Federal AE 100 grain loads are very hot. I don't like them. Reloading is the best way to get more enjoyment & longevity out of your SS .327 FM!!! Good luck I would contact Ruger they should help you out. I would keep your Single Seven just tone it down some!!!
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Old May 10th, 2017, 04:32 AM   #13
 
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When the 327 was first offered in the Single-Six I thought it was the neatest idea Ruger had come up with in a long time. I planned to work one into my "gun budget" but other things forestalled that move for a while. During this lull, I researched the 327 a bit and discovered the operating pressures the cartridge generated at its "full patch" load level. This gave me pause, and the 327SS fell off my "gotta have one" list. Some reports like the one in question here did nothing to make me feel better about the little hotrod.

I thought OK, I'll just load it down to .32H&R levels and it should perform nicely without beating itself to death. Yeah, but . . . I already have a Single-Six chambered in .32H&R, so what's the point of the 327SS if it can't tolerate the design loads on a regular basis?

So . . . I have not bought a Single Seven, and likely won't. I suppose Ruger could offer a "MK2" with somehow-reinforced recoil shield that might make more sense, but at what increase in cost? The whole matter is kinda disappointing because I still think the 327 is a wonderful fit in a gun the size of the Single-Six, and personally I'd like it better as a six-shooter but that's just me . . . although that arrangement might be a good change for the MK2 in 327. Maybe.

JMHO
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Old May 10th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #14
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Ale-8(1), When the 327 Fed Mag first came out, terminal ballistics looked very impressive. The very first application was a SP101 where it failed miserably. I think if Ruger would have made the cylinders 5 rounds instead of 6 rounds, there might have been enough metal to contain the high chamber pressure. Ruger had to do some fancy metallurgy with SP101 cylinders to keep them from seizing brass. There were reports of cylinders cracking too.

I checked the SAAMI specs and was amazed .... 45k psi. almost as high as a 30 Carbine at 46,500 psi. The saving grace for a 30 Carb in Ruger Blackhawks is .... the cylinders are quite massive so they are more resistant to the jack hammering effect affiliated with endshake. I'm convinced the 327 Fed Mag is just too much pressure for such a light frame and light weight cylinder.

Fast Frank, Yes, a 9mm/357 Mag convertible might be just the ticket for you. For cheap plinking or training a new shooter, it's hard to beat the low recoil of 9mm ammo. With the 357 Mag cylinder, there is a huge spectrum of factory ammo from light 38 target loads to serious 357 Mag loads and virtually everything in between. Reloading will give you the most robust load range but even if you don't reload, you can't beat the versatility of a Blackhawk convertible.

Here's my 9mm/357 Mag Convertible Blackhawk with a 4 5/8" barrel. My granddaughter learned how to shoot centerfire revolvers with this gun and several boxes of cheap 115gr 9mm ammo.

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Old May 11th, 2017, 05:15 AM   #15
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
Ale-8(1), When the 327 Fed Mag first came out, terminal ballistics looked very impressive. The very first application was a SP101 where it failed miserably. I think if Ruger would have made the cylinders 5 rounds instead of 6 rounds, there might have been enough metal to contain the high chamber pressure. Ruger had to do some fancy metallurgy with SP101 cylinders to keep them from seizing brass. There were reports of cylinders cracking too.

I checked the SAAMI specs and was amazed .... 45k psi. almost as high as a 30 Carbine at 46,500 psi. The saving grace for a 30 Carb in Ruger Blackhawks is .... the cylinders are quite massive so they are more resistant to the jack hammering effect affiliated with endshake. I'm convinced the 327 Fed Mag is just too much pressure for such a light frame and light weight cylinder.

I'd agree. All the hoopla associated with the introduction of the 327 simply ignored the operating pressure involved in favor of proclaiming the ".357 performance without the .357 recoil/blast" etc. In spite of that, I hoped, publicly, that Ruger would chamber a Single-Six for the round, knowing that Ruger had (should have had) the technical knowledge to produce guns up to the chore of handling it. Apparently not, however.

I think of all the .32 H&R single-Sixes that had their cylinders reamed to accept the 327 and just shake my head. It's as bad as the .357 conversions on Bearcats. All we hear about these is that "they work just fine" and I guess we'll see . . . if anyone admits it when they KABOOM.


Last edited by Ale-8(1); May 13th, 2017 at 05:06 AM. Reason: spelling
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