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Mark II Government Taget Model Value

This is a discussion on Mark II Government Taget Model Value within the Ruger Rimfires forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; Selling it would be a mistake. You have two pretty decent options: 1) put a decent red dot on it, like an Ultra Dot. They ...


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Old July 29th, 2013, 11:44 AM   #16
 
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Selling it would be a mistake.

You have two pretty decent options:

1) put a decent red dot on it, like an Ultra Dot. They are low profile, very high quality and do not have the parallax issues of most red dots.

2) talk you your eye doctor and get a pair of glasses with a +0.5 diopter correction in your shooting eye. That will clear the front sight up. For $10 or so you can get a feel for that by using a pair of +1.0 reading glasses - it will overly fuzz the target, but you'll get a feel for what just a little correction will do.

Alternatively you can get a shooting frame and lens and/or an iris that will sharpen your view of the front sight. I used to look down on the old guns on the national match course with those funny glasses when I was a 23 year Marine, but 25 year later I am one of those old guys.

Check the website at Champions Choice under shooting glasses and safety accessories and you'll see a range of options, including a low priced ($20) iris from Lyman. They really do increase your depth of field.

---

If you decide to sell it, be aware that blued Mk II Govt Target models have been selling for around $550-$600 on Gunbroker.



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Old July 30th, 2013, 03:03 PM   #17
 
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Quote:
Ruger made a bunch of these pistols in the mid-1980's (Stamped U.S.) to fulfill a military contract then also sold a civilian version as the "Government Target" since they had a large investment in all the tooling and testing jigs for the contract. The test target was a requirement of the contract which is why most of the civilian versions have them included in the box. I had several conversations with the designers and they said all pistols were manufactured to the same standards regardless of what their ultimate market destination was because it was more cost efficient that way
I have a blued MKII Government Model (MK 678 G), serial no.217-126xx, with a 6 7/8" bull barrel, purchased new in 1991 for $209.95. In response to a question "concerning the difference between the 5 1/2" bull barrel Target Model pistol and the Government Model pistol", Ruger responded with the following information which I found interesting:
"...The basic difference is that we do target the Government Model @ 25 yards with CCI Green Tag ammunition to insure it shoots a 1 1/2" group. This is not to say you might not get the same results with your 5 1/2" bull barrel, but it would not have to in order to meet our manufacturing specificatons.
"The Government Model also has a heat-treated chamber which allows us to hold it to a slightly tighter specification..."
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Old July 30th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #18
 
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Well I don't know what it's worth and I darned sure don't remember what I paid for it, but I ain't sellin' mine!
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Old July 30th, 2013, 06:06 PM   #19
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampwolf View Post
I have a blued MKII Government Model (MK 678 G), serial no.217-126xx, with a 6 7/8" bull barrel, purchased new in 1991 for $209.95. In response to a question "concerning the difference between the 5 1/2" bull barrel Target Model pistol and the Government Model pistol", Ruger responded with the following information which I found interesting:
"...The basic difference is that we do target the Government Model @ 25 yards with CCI Green Tag ammunition to insure it shoots a 1 1/2" group. This is not to say you might not get the same results with your 5 1/2" bull barrel, but it would not have to in order to meet our manufacturing specificatons.
"The Government Model also has a heat-treated chamber which allows us to hold it to a slightly tighter specification..."

I was not very specific in my earlier posting, when I said they manufactured them to the same specifications I was only talking about the Government model & Government Target model pistols with the 6 7/8ths inch barrels. Not the 5 1/2" bull barrel models. They also laser bore sighted each pistol prior to testing and shipment as part of the contract. One of our conversations, in the early 1990's, was concerning the tighter chambers on the government pistols as these were causing some issues with the commercially produced pistols. Since the military contract was fulfilled they were considering altering the chamber dimensions of the later produced pistols to facilitate operation with a wider variety of commercial ammunition brands.

R,
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Old July 30th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
I was not very specific in my earlier posting, when I said they manufactured them to the same specifications I was only talking about the Government model & Government Target model pistols with the 6 7/8ths inch barrels. Not the 5 1/2" bull barrel models. They also laser bore sighted each pistol prior to testing and shipment as part of the contract. One of our conversations, in the early 1990's, was concerning the tighter chambers on the government pistols as these were causing some issues with the commercially produced pistols. Since the military contract was fulfilled they were considering altering the chamber dimensions of the later produced pistols to facilitate operation with a wider variety of commercial ammunition brands.

R,
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That's good information to have. In general, with good quality ammunition, my Mk II Target with 5.5" barrel will shot under 1.5" at 25 yards.

I have a box of CCI green tag with nothing to do, so perhaps I'll shoot some test targets with it. I have no doubt I can demonstrate 1.5" at 25 yards.

----

When it comes to test targets though I am a realist and am well aware of the limitations of that marketing ploy. I lived near two high end gun makers for several years. Both sold rifles that were promised to deliver 1/2" at 100 yards accuracy, and both companies would shoot at our private club range when their respective indoor ranges were down for maintenance. I won't name either company as they both make very good quality rifles and I suspect every other company has similar test protocols to produce the required targets for similar accuracy claims, but they will serve to illustrate the fallacy of the test target:

Our range was in a canyon with trees to either side so winds were not an issue especially on calm days, so it was the default choice when a 100 yd indoor range was not available. Basically when they were testing a new rifle, they'd fire a group, and if it looked good in the spotting scope they'd move to the next rifle, if not they'd fire another group until they got a good one. In most cases 2 or 3 groups was enough to get a suitable 1/2" group, but obviously the rifle would not do it every time.

The other shooting that was done at the range was with problem rifles that had been returned by the shooter/buyer, or that had failed to shoot a suitable group previously. In most cases their in-house expert had looked at them and tweaked them. Some would again get a 1/2" group in 2 or 3 groups, while others would eventually get a suitable test target and get sent out the door.

So... after watching that several times and talking to the shooter, who were up front about it and made no bones about hiding anything, I put no faith in test targets. Statistically, a single test target tells you nothing at all, except that any rifle can get lucky now and then.

For example, I have shot sub 1/2" 5 shot groups with my CZ 453 and Model 52R Winchester sporters at 100 yards using SK Standard Plus .22LR ammo, and I have the targets to "prove" it. But statistically, having fired many 100 yard groups with them over time, I know they are 1.0 MOA to 1.25 MOA rifles at that range, not 1/2 MOA rifles.

In a similar fashion, I know many of those "1/2 MOA" rifles I saw tested were instead 1 MOA or even 1.5 MOA rifles with test targets that represented 2nd or 3rd SD performance in the right hand tail of a normal distribution.

They get away with it as 1) they are not being dishonest - it did produce a 1/2" group at 100 yards at least once, and 2) most people won't shoot that well, or they'll get a serious shooter who'll work up a load that will shoot better than the Federal Gold Medal ammunition they used for testing. Consequently, very few customer send those 1.0 MOA or 1.5 MOA rifles back. In many cases, if they are sent back it's an issue of playing with action screw torque and getting a half inch group and then telling the shooter "we have no problem getting half inch groups with this ammo and these action screw torque values. Even if the customer can't replicate it, few customers are willing to send it back given the implication that the problem is the shooter, not the rifle.

----

The US military accuracy standard for ammunition requires a sample of the ammunition lot to be tested with a test barrel at 200 yd or 600 yd with three 30 round groups with a maximum horizontal and vertical standard deviation. If only two out of three groups meet the standard they get to retest the lot. If only one of three makes it, or if it fails the second test, the whole lot gets rejected. (Can anyone say "civilian white box ammo for sale".)

As an example, the acceptance criteria for M855 requires both a vertical and horizontal standard deviation no greater than 6.8" at 600 yards or alternatively no greater than 1.8" at 200 yards using an indoor range. Three 30 shot targets are fired and averaged out of a fixed test barrel.

What it means is the maximum allowable average distance from the center of the target would be 1.8" at 200 yards. This means that 68.2% (61) of the rounds will impact within a 3.6" circle at 200 yards, 95.4% (a total of 86) will impact within a 7.2" circle at 200 yards and 99.9% (for all practical purposes all of the 90 ound sample) will impact within a 10.8" circle at 200 yards.

Two minutes of angle is 4.19" at 200 yards, so the accuracy standard for 1 standard deviation is essentially 1.7 MOA and it is 3.4 MOA at the 95% confidence level.

That 90 round sample is much better than relying on a single 3, 5, or 10 round group to meet a 3.4 MOA accuracy standard, as with enough attempts you could get eventually get any lot of M855 to print a sufficiently small group, but it would not tell you anything about the consistency of the lot as a whole.

Similarly, weapons acceptance requires accuracy determined by the mean radius from the point of aim (calculating the average distance of each hole from the center of the target. This approach thus considers the entire distribution of shot, including the expected number of fliers, rather then just relying on a single 3 or 5 shot cold barrel group.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 12:15 PM   #21
 
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Thanks for all the input guys. Greatly appreciated.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 01:20 PM   #22
 
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I've also enjoyed this thread.
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Old August 6th, 2013, 01:21 PM   #23
 
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That is great info Model52, thank you.

For the M855 what weapon standard is that for, an M4 or longer barreled version? I have a short-ish AR that shoots itty bitty groups alongide it's longer barreled brethren but beyond 350-400yds the groups really start to open up, so I was wondering if that standard isn't test or for longer barreled guns.
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Old August 7th, 2013, 06:11 AM   #24
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
I was not very specific in my earlier posting, when I said they manufactured them to the same specifications I was only talking about the Government model & Government Target model pistols with the 6 7/8ths inch barrels. Not the 5 1/2" bull barrel models.
Bullseye
Are there two different Government models? Is the US stamped model known as just the "Government" model or are they both "Government Target" models? Is the 678GC (competition target) slabside also known as a "Government" model? Just trying to get these different Mark II models catagorized.
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Old August 7th, 2013, 07:42 AM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by kacher1 View Post
Are there two different Government models? Is the US stamped model known as just the "Government" model or are they both "Government Target" models? Is the 678GC (competition target) slabside also known as a "Government" model? Just trying to get these different Mark II models catagorized.
Interesting question which has inspired me to do some more research into the subject. No these are not two different model pistols, apparently it is I who has been misusing these terms and have been doing so for many, many years. As I said once before I am not a collector but a mechanic of these pistols. The heavy tapered barrel version I was mislabeling as Government model is actually the Target model MK678. It is the one that has the 6 7/8ths inch heavy tapered target barrel. The MK678G is the Government Target, sometimes referred to as the "Government Model" but the side of the receiver is stamped "Government Target Model" and has the 6 7/8ths inch bull barrel. The Competition Target Model or MK678GC is stamped "Competition Target Model" on the side of the receiver. The 'GC" in the model number stands for "government competition" or the 6 7/8ths inch barrel that has been slabsided but is not officially called the government competition model. There have also been some 5 1/2 inch slab side barrel versions of this Competition Target Model, MK512GCL, which the "L" in the model number stands for Lipseys, the exclusive distributor for which these pistols were produced. These too have the "Competition Target Model" stamping on the side of the receiver.


Hopefully I have not misused anything else here. My apologies if I have confused anyone by my incorrect terminology in past postings.

R,
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Old August 8th, 2013, 09:43 AM   #26
 
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Thanks again for your knowledge and explanations.
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Old August 30th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #27
 
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Lucky find

I just got lucky and found a 100% mint, made in 1997, MKII blue with the 5 1/2" bull barrel at my local gun shop. The weapon came with the original box, paperwork, manual, Etc. I don't know where it had been all these years, but it is brand new and unfired! $425.00. I sold mine just like it 30 years ago during a divorce. Now I've got my old plinking pistol back. I don't like the new MKIII's due to the loaded chamber indicator and the magazine disconnecter. Why Ruger went that direction is a strange thing.

Last edited by muleskinner; September 11th, 2013 at 04:00 PM.
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Old August 31st, 2013, 06:51 AM   #28
 
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If Ruger started making a Mark III with the stainless 6 7/8 full bull barrel, I would be standing in line to get one.
The "Catalog #" on my 3 year old Mark III Competition is KMKIII678GC and the G in the number might throw some people off.
A full bull barrel SS Government Model Mark II in excellent condition is worth $500.
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Old September 1st, 2013, 10:24 PM   #29
 
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I find this statement from Ruger interesting;

"The Government Model also has a heat-treated chamber which allows us to hold it to a slightly tighter specification..." I wonder why Ruger does not do that on all of their target models to include the 5 1/2" bull barrel?
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Old September 2nd, 2013, 08:03 AM   #30
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muleskinner View Post
I find this statement from Ruger interesting;

"The Government Model also has a heat-treated chamber which allows us to hold it to a slightly tighter specification..." I wonder why Ruger does not do that on all of their target models to include the 5 1/2" bull barrel?
My "guess" would be because the Government Target was originally manufactured on a contract for the military. It had to meet the military specs. After filling that contract, Ruger offered or continued making them for the public with the same specs (including burnished chamber) and provided the test target in the box. That process would be way too expensive to manufacture in all the Mark target models. That's why the Government Target model commands a higher price on the used market. Just a guess you know.

Last edited by kacher1; September 2nd, 2013 at 08:05 AM.
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