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This is a discussion on mark 4 disassembly within the Ruger Rimfires forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; So far the Loc-Tite is holding but please let us know how Rugers new retaining spring works. Thanks...


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Old May 15th, 2017, 04:28 AM   #16
 
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So far the Loc-Tite is holding but please let us know how Rugers new retaining spring works. Thanks



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Old May 15th, 2017, 06:56 AM   #17
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner Bill View Post
I did some calling & research, it appears that Ruger has released
a new pin retaining spring to hold that migrating pin in place so
that is probably the correct way to stop the pin from migrating out.

I have a new (updated) spring coming so will see if I can work it
into place without fully removing the hammer spring housing, hammer,
& sear.
Morning Gunner Bill

You will have to remove those components to install the new spring. However, if you install a slave pin that is shorter than the retaining pin by the width of the frame sides, you can remove them as a single assembly. It should make installing the new spring a snap.

I'm wondering if the root cause may be the same as that for the VQ hammer getting stuck down. Maybe you can do a simple experiment? Remove the upper, and try pushing on the retaining pin. Rate the difficulty to make it move out. Put it back, take the safety off, release the pressure on the hammer spring while controlling the hammer forward, and try pushing the retaining pin again. I'm thinking the pin will be locked in on this second try.

Please let me know the results. Also, maybe you can post a pic of the 2 springs side-by-side before you install the new one?

Thanks.
TE
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Old May 15th, 2017, 07:46 AM   #18
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngineer View Post
Morning Gunner Bill

You will have to remove those components to install the new spring. However, if you install a slave pin that is shorter than the retaining pin by the width of the frame sides, you can remove them as a single assembly. It should make installing the new spring a snap.

I'm wondering if the root cause may be the same as that for the VQ hammer getting stuck down. Maybe you can do a simple experiment? Remove the upper, and try pushing on the retaining pin. Rate the difficulty to make it move out. Put it back, take the safety off, release the pressure on the hammer spring while controlling the hammer forward, and try pushing the retaining pin again. I'm thinking the pin will be locked in on this second try.

Please let me know the results. Also, maybe you can post a pic of the 2 springs side-by-side before you install the new one?

Afternoon TestEngineer

No need for a salve pin, all a person needs is a smaller diameter pin (like a nail or 1/8" drill bit).

I simply push the cross pin out with a smaller diameter pin (that retains the take-down button) then with a finger or thumb on the take-down button just slide the smaller diameter pin out & the take-down button just slips right out the rear with little spring pressure. The thing to keep in mind is that the hammer must be forward to take the spring pressure off that cross pin. (easier to do than typing it up here)

I think I might be able to get the pin retaining spring out without removing the hammer-- with the hammer forward I can lift the hammer spring housing a little so hopefully I can just pry the retaining spring "L" legs out of the main spring housing holes then slide the spring out from under the hammer spring housing.

Getting those "L" legs back in might be a chore but I think a pair of heavy duty tweezers might work (this is still to be determined)

Obviously with the upper off & the HAMMER FORWARD the pin will be easier to move laterally (I don't even have to do that to tell you it will as that takes the mainspring pressure off of the hammer spring housing to pin interface)

Yes, I will try to compare the new spring to the original spring BUT, the problem is, my original spring has been tweaked to have more tension.

Unless I can figure out how to re-contour the original spring back to stock form it might not be a true comparison.

Last edited by Gunner Bill; May 15th, 2017 at 07:49 AM.
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Old May 15th, 2017, 09:16 AM   #19
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner Bill View Post
Obviously with the upper off & the HAMMER FORWARD the pin will be easier to move laterally (I don't even have to do that to tell you it will as that takes the mainspring pressure off of the hammer spring housing to pin interface).
Afternoon Bill

My premise is that the pin should be harder to move laterally once the mainspring pressure is removed.

True, the housing no longer supplies pressure on the pin - but it can't be much in the first place if the pin has been walking.

Instead, I'm thinking the housing will no longer be (over)compressing the retaining spring. This should allow the spring to flex up deeper into the notches and keep the pin held in place better. I think the housing is over-compressing the retaining spring when the trigger is cocked.

Maybe you can confirm or disprove my idea? I understand your spring is tweeked some, and may have some effect on the results.

Thanks.
TE
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Old May 15th, 2017, 10:01 AM   #20
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngineer View Post
Afternoon Bill

My premise is that the pin should be harder to move laterally once the mainspring pressure is removed.

True, the housing no longer supplies pressure on the pin - but it can't be much in the first place if the pin has been walking.

Instead, I'm thinking the housing will no longer be (over)compressing the retaining spring. This should allow the spring to flex up deeper into the notches and keep the pin held in place better. I think the housing is over-compressing the retaining spring when the trigger is cocked.

Maybe you can confirm or disprove my idea? I understand your spring is tweeked some, and may have some effect on the results.

Thanks.
TE
Afternoon TestEngineer

I don't think the hammer spring housing is moving & compressing the pin retaining spring. The main part of the retaining spring pressure comes from the bottom loop of the pin retaining spring sitting on the fame (the part of the spring that is attached to the hammer spring housing is way forward & has long thin legs extended forward)

No doubt that the hammer spring housing bouncing around on the pin to housing slop is probably contributing to the pin walk but the basic design looks solid (IF) the retaining spring applies enough force to keep the spring legs in the pin slots.

I have the new parts in hand (new supposedly updated spring & I also ordered another pin) -- I can't speak about any spring differences until I get the old spring out for comparison but the new pin slots look wider (that is a positive thing as I wasn't sure that the original pin slots perfectly lined up on the spring legs).

I couldn't see down in between the frame & hammer spring housing as the housing has little porches over the spring legs in the pin area.

I could never positively verify pin slot to spring leg match up. What made me wonder is, there was always some lateral springiness when pushing the pin back & forth.

One of the problems in verifying the spring to pin slot matchup is there is a pin slot on each side so one side of the spring could be holding good but the other side might but out of, or partially out of the pin slot.

I will keep the post updated as I go along but (IF) the new pin is different enough then I might try JUST the new pin with the old spring first.
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Old May 15th, 2017, 01:26 PM   #21
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner Bill View Post
I don't think the hammer spring housing is moving & compressing the pin retaining spring. The main part of the retaining spring pressure comes from the bottom loop of the pin retaining spring sitting on the fame (the part of the spring that is attached to the hammer spring housing is way forward & has long thin legs extended forward)
Afternoon Bill

The retaining spring is definitely too compressed if the legs don't engage the retaining pin slots well. This can be caused by either - the hammer spring housing pushing down too much in the front, or by the spring loop not sliding back after the pin is inserted.

I am suspecting the housing because of the problem people are having with installed VQ hammers locking down in the parallel position, instead of popping back up. In experimenting with my pre-mkiv mark pistols, I found the only way the hammer would trap down was if the front of the housing shifted down (it doesn't take much).

Coincidence? Maybe.

The second possibility (the spring loop not sliding back) could be due to friction between the loop and the frame under it, or by friction between the spring legs and the sides of the housing. If the new spring has the legs spread wider - it appears Ruger is thinking it's the friction with the sides of the housing.

Quote:
I have the new parts in hand (new supposedly updated spring & I also ordered another pin) -- I can't speak about any spring differences until I get the old spring out for comparison but the new pin slots look wider (that is a positive thing as I wasn't sure that the original pin slots perfectly lined up on the spring legs).
Interesting. Are you saying the pin slots are made larger, or that they are positioned further apart (maybe both)?
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Old May 15th, 2017, 01:41 PM   #22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TestEngineer View Post



Interesting. Are you saying the pin slots are made larger, or that they are positioned further apart (maybe both)?

Evening TestEngineer

I originally though the slots looked wider but see my post below as they seem to be close to the same. In fact the slots in the new pin are not quite as deep.
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Old May 15th, 2017, 01:41 PM   #23
 
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Evening_____

WELLLL!-- This isn't turning out as I expected.

I put both a mike & precision caliper to both the original cross pin & the new one.

The original pin was .124" OD & new pin is .124" OD, bottom of slot diameter on original was .1043" & on new pin is .1052" , outside of slot to outside of slot is .3925" on orig & .3898" on new one. Pin length on orig was .6715 & on new pin .6710.

Slot width is about impossible to measure accurately & I measured 5 times & got 5 different measurements (a .0445" drill bit shank did easily fit into both orig & new pin slots though)

I would have taken a picture but other than some wear areas on the orig they do look identical. Except for the slot bottom diameter both pins measured within what I would consider production tolerances.

I did put the orig pin in my padded vise then pulled a .020" piece of spring wire across the slot then did the same with the new pin & subjectively they felt about the same to get the wire to jump out of the slot.

Now we come to the spring?-- they look identical in bend, leg length, the fold-back length, & the fold-back angle. Both orig & new spring measure .0195" in diameter.

I did need to remove the hammer to get the new spring clipped to the hammer spring housing with confidence that it laid correctly below the hammer spring housing. (in fact I inverted the gun frame when installing to make darn sure that the spring stayed in the correct orientation as the hammer spring housing was re-installed).

I used a .124" drill bit shank cut to pin length with one end chamfered as a guide to initially assemble (my reasoning was that I wanted the chamfer to gently push the spring legs down so as to not distort the spring legs. (all went together smoothly)

Then I tried to push the new pin partially out with a nylon punch. It did (subjectively) feel a little more secure but I could still push it out rather easily so (now my confession)

I removed the new spring then slightly re-bent the fold-back to give the spring more leg tension. Then re-assembled & tried to push the pin partially out again. This time (subjectively) it took a lot more force to get the pin to move & get the spring legs to jump out of the slots. (I just hate to modify an untested part based on nothing more than a subjective feel & an educated guess but I just wasn't happy with the force-to-break-free on the new pin & spring).

Sorry I was going to take pictures but there really wasn't enough difference in the parts to be seen in pictures.

I will update this thread after I get about 500 rounds through the gun then possibly update again @ 2000 rounds through the gun. (I will definitely post back if the pin comes out again)

In looking at all the parts, the thing that stood out as the most likely to move the pin was that floating bolt stop. It floats latterly on the cross pin so if the bolt hits it with force & drives it a little sideways that could force the cross pin to want to move sideways. Or if the upper frame squirms a bit sideways on recoil that could also move the cross pin sideways.
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Old May 17th, 2017, 09:56 AM   #24
 
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Flow-Up

As of today a little over 550 rounds on the new spring/pin (400 high power & 150 standard velocity).

Pin is staying put with no migration.

I will update again at around 2000 rounds.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 06:13 PM   #25
 
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Just got my Mark IV Competition back from Ruger due to the pin for the takedown button coming out. The pin came out to the right side of the frame twice after firing. Here is the Ruger Note for the repair:

"Items repaired: Bolt stop cross pin retainer, receiver frame screw.
After repair, pistol was function fired 40 rounds of Win Super X 40gr, without malfunction."

Evidently nothing was replaced, only repaired. I will try it at the range and post again. They sent a cleaning cloth for my trouble and no charge for shipping or repair. Love Ruger CS.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 04:59 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by seatrout View Post
Just got my Mark IV Competition back from Ruger due to the pin for the takedown button coming out. The pin came out to the right side of the frame twice after firing. Here is the Ruger Note for the repair:

"Items repaired: Bolt stop cross pin retainer, receiver frame screw.
After repair, pistol was function fired 40 rounds of Win Super X 40gr, without malfunction."

Evidently nothing was replaced, only repaired. I will try it at the range and post again. They sent a cleaning cloth for my trouble and no charge for shipping or repair. Love Ruger CS.
Morning seatrout

Thanks for the follow up. Can you tell if Ruger replaced the "receiver frame screw" or just Loc-Tited it? (I had to Lock-Tite mine to keep it tight)

On the "bolt stop cross pin retainer"--I guess by the way they (Ruger) wrote up the repair we will never know if they just re-bent the original retainer spring, or replaced it, or replaced it & also re-bent it. (too bad as it would be nice to know EXACTLY what they did for repair)

Is the cross pin now perfectly centered or does it slightly stick out one side of the frame (just a bit proud on one side?)
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Old May 20th, 2017, 06:57 AM   #27
 
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Gunner Bill - I cannot see any evidence of loc-tite on the receiver frame screw and if it was loose when I sent it in I never noticed. I'll keep an eye on it as well. The pin for the takedown button is sticking out the left side while the right side is slightly inside the hole. When it would work out before it was always to the right side. I hope to get to the range in the next day or two and run a couple hundred rounds through it.
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