Ruger Forum

Liabilities with new lc9 trigger bar

This is a discussion on Liabilities with new lc9 trigger bar within the Ruger Pistols forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; This thread is a spinoff from the http://rugerforum.net/ruger-pistols/...e-threads.html thread that talks about the long trigger pull and the Galloway Precision solution. Months ago, I called ...


Go Back   Ruger Forum > Pistol & Revolver Forum > Ruger Pistols

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes

Old October 7th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #1
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: N. GA
Posts: 30
ctadds is on a distinguished road
Liabilities with new lc9 trigger bar

This thread is a spinoff from the LC9 Trigger pull (Multiple threads) thread that talks about the long trigger pull and the Galloway Precision solution.

Months ago, I called Ruger and even sent a letter to their president over the lc9 trigger pull issue, my argument being that I cannot keep my shots on target, I am putting myself in a bad liability position. Their (non)response was that changing the pull is a liability issue for them, this from the tech dept.; Ruger’s president never responded.

Ruger has changed the trigger pull on the lcp, and now it appears that when older lc9 models are being sent in for repair, the trigger pull is a lot smoother when they are returned. See Is it my imagination, or did Ruger change LC9 Trigger? I’m assuming that Ruger is upgrading the springs in older models when they are sent in for repair. According to what I have read, the pulls are a lot smoother, but there is often no notification that anything has been changed.

We also know that if you send your gun to Ruger with the modified trigger pull, they will return it to stock, which, of course is the reason for everyone waited for Eric at Galloway Precision to come up with the new bar, rather than just modifying the stock bar, this after Ruger stopped selling stock trigger bars that Galloway was modifying.

What is the impact for those of us that are upgrading springs? Say we send the gun in for repair, does this mean that we need to return everything to stock before we do that (which may be a smart move, since you could end up with a new bunch of springs for free), or will Ruger just leave the set up alone?

While all this is going on, there have been several comments from folks stating that if you modify a gun, this could be a problem if you ever get into a courtroom.

Regarding liability issues, it seems to me that a few things are at play:
1) It is my responsibility to insure that I can use my weapon as accurately as possible, and if changing the trigger bar and springs accomplishes that, I don’t see where that should increase my liability or what impact that should have on Ruger’s.
2) If Ruger is modifying trigger pulls in other models and improving the trigger (in terms of smoothness, not pull length) in lc9’s sent in for repair, then they must recognize that there is some problems out there with this.
3) If Ruger is upgrading or changing things in later models, is this not a tacit admission that the earlier models needed refinement, and is this not a liability issue for Ruger if they do not advise anyone of this?
4) Either Ruger is more concerned about their liability than they are about mine, or alternatively (and more likely), Ruger is making a financial decision and doesn’t care what happens to me.

I will grant you that in a court of law, the attorneys can and will argue anything they want. I once had an attorney who lived by the following: “If you have the facts, argue the facts, if you don’t have the facts, argue the law, and if you don’t have either, just argue.” Based on that, I can’t see where a counter argument could not be established by dealing with a new, and perhaps more accurate, set of facts.

For instance, say those of us who are upgrading our trigger bars can conclusively show that the gun is more stable and accurate with the newer bar, perhaps in the form of a double blind study that could be posted here or published in a magazine, would that not give credence to a courtroom argument?

For that matter, just a gathering of anecdotal information from a broad base of users on a thread like this one could give some credibility to the whole concept of upgrading trigger bars. While a thread such as this one may not be scientifically conclusive, it would at least provide an attorney some “facts” to argue with in a court of law.

Speaking for myself, I have a lot more confidence in my lc9 with upgraded parts.

What is the consensus on this?

By the way, WHOA! Two New Filings - LC9S and LC9XT just posted that Ruger has 2 new trademark filings. Could be some upgrades or just different looks—it will be interesting to see.

Thanks--C



ctadds is offline  
Advertisements
Old October 7th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #2
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 436
robkarrob is on a distinguished road
The following is something I post when people start discussing the legal consequences of modifying a gun.

The only way a modified gun would have any bearing on a criminal or civil case would be if it was accidentally fired. All my handguns have modifications that allow me to shoot better. I am not the least bit concerned about legal problems. The guns are easier for me to shoot and shoot more accurately, while remaining safe to handle. I am a former LEO and know the difference between intent and accidental discharge.

Accidental discharge is the question. With a bone stock gun, you will be liable, as somehow during handling of the gun it discharged. Depending on the circumstances you could face criminal charges, but for injury or death you would likely face civil charges. The civil attorney suing you may also go after the gun manufacturer, (unsafe design, and deep pockets). With modifications to a gun, the first question would be "could those modifications have made the gun less safe than the stock gun? Was the cause of the discharge related to any of the modifications?" If the answer is yes, or could be yes, to either of those questions, then you could criminally face some type of negligent charges (you did not intend it to happen). If you are sued in a civil court, the modifications will be used to convince the jury to award higher damages, as the gun was "not safe and was more likely to discharge". With modifications to the gun, the gun manufacturer would most likely not be included in the lawsuit as your modifications made the gun less safe.

The above is for accidental discharge. If you shoot someone with intent (you thought about it, took action, and completed your intent), then any modifications would not matter. It is like someone said, if you had a trigger pull that was so light it would fire if a fly landed on the trigger, it still would not matter. It was not an accidental discharge. You had intent (thought about shooting the person, even for only a second). You took action (you aimed the gun and pulled the trigger). You completed your intent (the gun fired and the bullet hit your target). In this situation, depending on the circumstances, the charges could be nothing (a self defense situation) all the way up to first degree murder (you planned it and carried it out). Even if this shooting was determined to be an obvious SD situation, and no criminal charges are filed, you still will likely be sued by the victim, or the victim's family. You could be totally in the right by defending yourself or family, and you will still be sued. Most people are not aware of the costs of defending themselves in a "good" shooting. As we all know, in our country you can sue for almost anything. The costs for defending yourself would fall upon you, with little chance of recovering those costs. Many people have gone bankrupt, from attorney fees, defending themselves from a civil trial for damages. I am not saying to not shoot because you may get sued. I would shoot to save a life, but I know what the results of that shooting could be.

If you shoot someone and intended to shoot them, it would not matter at all how you modified the gun. NOT AT ALL. You had the intent to shoot them as you thought about it and decided to shoot. It would not matter if it had a "hair trigger"? It would not matter if you eliminated the manual safety? Those modifications had no bearing on the shooting. You aimed the gun and pulled the trigger. Whether the trigger pulled easier, or you didn't have to release the safety first, it wouldn't matter.

That is why I am always thinking about different scenarios involving SD situations. What would I do, how would I react, what would justify my pulling the trigger. As a LEO I always had the mindset that I would never shoot anyone unless it was a life or death situation, even though we could shoot for felony situations. I would only shoot to protect myself or to protect the life of someone else, who was threatened with imminent death.

Bob
robkarrob is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #3
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: N. GA
Posts: 30
ctadds is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by robkarrob View Post
That is why I am always thinking about different scenarios involving SD situations. What would I do, how would I react, what would justify my pulling the trigger. As a LEO I always had the mindset that I would never shoot anyone unless it was a life or death situation, even though we could shoot for felony situations. I would only shoot to protect myself or to protect the life of someone else, who was threatened with imminent death.

Bob
Bob, great answer, thanks. I have always taken the position that my weapon is more of a deterrent than something that I would arbitrarily use in any given situation. For that reason, my CC weapon has a laser on it, not so much to give me better accuracy, but hopefully to scare someone off.

Also, given the legal environment that we live in, which seems upside down to me, it seems that the threat of imminent death would almost be defined as the other guy taking a shot at you or one of your loved ones.

As an LEO, would you agree with these philosophies?


C
ctadds is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #4
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 21
will9c1 is on a distinguished road
I believe you have to separate the criminal proceeding from the civil proceeding. Let's look at it as a continuation of your thread.

You have purchased the LC9 with the intent of the gun as you self defense weapon, due to the fact that you wanted to improve the trigger, you purchased aftermarket parts to improve the trigger. The gun works fine. Due to the fact that you were in imminent fear of serious injury of death for yourself or others, you discharged your weapon for self defense or defense of other, and shot the bad guy and you killed him.

Here's what you are looking at, bear in mind this is Texas, but laws various states while different but similar, consult your own state law regarding use of deadly force (for those in Texas, it is Chapter 9 of Penal Code).

Criminal investigation: Anytime you intentionally or knowingly kill a person, it's murder. However, the law also states that a person may use deadly force against to protect himself or others if they are in fear of imminent seriously body injury or death, sexual assault, agg sexual assault, burglary, kidnapping, agg kidnapping, theft at nighttime and criminal mischief at night (under certain circumstances for protection of property). After investigation, if it seems clear cut it was self defense, investigation would be closed, and no further criminal liabilities would fall on you. However, if the circumstances seemed gray or questionable to the police, it would be sent to the grand jury to see if there are probable cause for trial. Then you would be in trial for murder (agg assault w/ deadly weapon if he didn't die). The gun and the modification made has no bearing, it was only an instrument used in the offense, a piece of evidence, nothing more.

However, no matter how just your cause is, nothing would keep you from civil liabilities (hence what is wrong with this country, people can sue for no reason whatsoever). At the civil trial, on the first go around, they will sue everyone involved. From the gun manufacturer, the gun shop who sold you the gun, you, and your family. Reason to do so is to get the deepest pocket possible. If each party can eliminate themselves from liability, they would. I guess this is where your question lies. Would Ruger still be liable? Possibly. But your modification would only be an issue if they were sued and the gun was ineffective, then they can say you modified it. Otherwise it was operational as built, they bear no responsibility for the end user's intent and action. But you get the idea. But in a long, roundabout way, I guess the answer is civil liability on falls on Ruger if it was ineffective someone try to sue them. Then the fact that it was modified comes into play.

Hope that answers some of your questions. Sorry for the long reply
will9c1 is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #5
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 1,227
drt4lfe is on a distinguished road
No such thing as an ( accidental ) discharge......a gun cannot fire itself....someone either pulls trigger or does something to make gun fire...
drt4lfe is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #6
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: N. GA
Posts: 30
ctadds is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by will9c1 View Post
Sorry for the long reply
LOL--It's a long question! Thanks--the detail is most appreciated. Would agree then that you almost have to be shot at first to be "fully protected" in a courtroom as things stand now?

C

Last edited by ctadds; October 7th, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
ctadds is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 05:31 PM   #7
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 21
will9c1 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctadds View Post
LOL--It's a long question! Thanks--the detail is most appreciated. Would agree then that you almost have to be shot at first to be "fully protected" in a courtroom as things stand now?

C
No, not necessarily, as long as you can justify you were in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death or protection of others of the same. In Texas, Penal code basically states that you don't have to be hit to hit someone, no duty to retreat (stand your ground). Just bear in mind that it has to be reasonable under to common man standard. Or the best way to put it, if you have to stand in front of jury of your peers, would they agree with your action?
will9c1 is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #8
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 226
mveach is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by drt4lfe View Post
No such thing as an ( accidental ) discharge......a gun cannot fire itself....someone either pulls trigger or does something to make gun fire...
There have bin a few cases of a flaw in the fire arm causing an accidental discharge. Granted these are a fraction of a percent. I knew a detective a number of years ago that had knowledge of one case. A lab found that the fire arm could accidentally discharge.

Last edited by mveach; October 7th, 2013 at 06:46 PM. Reason: spelling
mveach is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 08:01 PM   #9
 
mwnahas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 1,276
mwnahas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by drt4lfe View Post
No such thing as an ( accidental ) discharge......a gun cannot fire itself....someone either pulls trigger or does something to make gun fire...
Negligent discharge is such a thing they could go after you for.
mwnahas is offline  
Old October 7th, 2013, 08:13 PM   #10
 
mwnahas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 1,276
mwnahas is on a distinguished road
Some interesting points here but how about the prosecutor convincing your jury you are a cold blooded calculating killer because you made your gun more lethal. You deliberately and with forethought defeated the manufacturers safety features. Remember they will make sure the jury has no cc license holders.
mwnahas is offline  
Old October 8th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #11
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 21
will9c1 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwnahas View Post
Some interesting points here but how about the prosecutor convincing your jury you are a cold blooded calculating killer because you made your gun more lethal. You deliberately and with forethought defeated the manufacturers safety features. Remember they will make sure the jury has no cc license holders.
Can't speak for every state, but a firearm is already considered a deadly weapon, "defeating" safety feature does not make a gun more or less deadly. No more than someone who sharpens a knife make the knife more deadly or a driver put an aftermarket exhaust and headers make a driver more reckless if he was to be in an accident. Jury selection would be on both sides, both prosecutor and defense attorney gets to dismiss certain members of potential jury. Again, it is one of those things that common sense prevails most of the time. Try not to put yourself in a questionable situation and if you have to use it, then use it and able to articulate it and justify it.
will9c1 is offline  
Old October 8th, 2013, 11:49 AM   #12
 
mwnahas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 1,276
mwnahas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by will9c1 View Post
Can't speak for every state, but a firearm is already considered a deadly weapon, "defeating" safety feature does not make a gun more or less deadly. No more than someone who sharpens a knife make the knife more deadly or a driver put an aftermarket exhaust and headers make a driver more reckless if he was to be in an accident.
You and I understand that... Jury may not and the prosecutor would take advantage of the low information (as far as fire arms is concerned) jury. They don't know you and you will be painted as evil. I pray it never happens to us.
mwnahas is offline  
Old November 16th, 2013, 05:06 AM   #13
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Loudoun County, VA
Posts: 242
Captains1911 is on a distinguished road
Can anybody confirm that Ruger is using different springs with newer LC9 models? This is the first I've heard if that.
Captains1911 is offline  
Reply

  Ruger Forum > Pistol & Revolver Forum > Ruger Pistols



Search tags for this page
has ruger modified the lc9 trigger?
,
lc9 new trigger
,

lc9 trigger bar

,

lc9 upgrades

,
legal to modify lc9 trigger
,
new lc9 trigger
,
ruger lc9 bars
,
ruger lc9 new trigger
,

ruger lc9 trigger bar

,
ruger lc9 trigger bar for sale
,
ruger lc9xt
,
trigger bar for lc9 ruger
Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Ruger Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Triggers: Single action trigger only vs DA trigger in SA mode? P89DC Ruger Single Action 3 July 31st, 2013 04:44 PM
Replacing trigger guard housing and trigger with metal versions nmcarbine Gunsmithing 2 March 22nd, 2013 01:25 PM
SR22P need a Smoother Trigger Pull & Shorter Trigger Reset westgl Ruger Rimfires 2 September 27th, 2012 09:51 PM
SR9c trigger vs. SR9 trigger question ping Ruger Pistols 2 March 21st, 2011 09:56 AM
Metal trigger guard, trigger and mag release dksac2 Ruger 10/22 Rimfire 14 July 21st, 2010 03:02 PM

Top Gun Sites Top Sites List  
Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2006 - 2014 Ruger Forum. All rights reserved.
Ruger Forum is a Ruger Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent Sturm Ruger & Company Inc. of Southport, CT.