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decision time on 9mm pistol

This is a discussion on decision time on 9mm pistol within the Ruger Pistols forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; Originally Posted by tacticalreload As for plastic guide rods... I have not had one fail in a Beretta, but I haven't owned a Beretta 92 ...


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Old December 30th, 2016, 09:33 PM   #46
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticalreload View Post
As for plastic guide rods... I have not had one fail in a Beretta, but I haven't owned a Beretta 92 long enough to say one way or another. I have, however, had numerous other issues with plastic guide rods in other guns. I've had the base chip on a couple of them. I also had one that warped to the point that it caused the gun to malfunction. I personally prefer steel guide rods... or at least to keep an eye on the plastic one closely and swap it out regularly.

As for the slides cracking, google "Beretta 92 slide crack". You'll likely find quite a number of people from LE departments stating that they have cracked slides or sheared barrel lugs. As I mentioned before, "Super Dave" Harrington stated that when working to develop the 92G-SD, they specifically used the Brigadier slides because of slide cracking issues. If you don't know who Dave Harrington is, look him up. He probably knows as much or more about the Beretta 92 than anyone out there. Beretta themselves state that the Brigadier (which has a beefier section right where the cracks are most likely to develop) has "enhanced durability". There are also a number of people who have reported that, after getting a crack in their slide and contact Beretta, that Beretta states that this is considered "normal wear and tear" and that the slide is a "wear part" not covered under warranty. Take what you will from that and choose to either believe it or not... either way, it's a piece of information that is useful to consider (or not). Honestly, it seems like there are FAR more reports of cracked / sheared locking blocks / barrel lugs.

I'm guessing that the average person who maintains their gun and doesn't put a whole lot of +P or +P+ ammo through it will never experience an issue. I wouldn't have a problem owning another 92 if I had the money laying around.
NO, Ive never heard of super dave. A quick look at his bio, two words stuck with me,, Blackwater & Glock armorer. Several of his videos show him shooting, praising and pushing glocks. Nuff said.

So look. With all due respect, Im NOT going to get into a debate about the 92 because some guy who calls himself super dave with a VERY questionable past, and who loves glocks said so. There are also forum that talk about his BIO being pure made up BS.
His bio ..... if you buy it (Reply #8) - Democratic Underground

Id rather see YOU post your links as to all this proof about 92fs or M9 slides cracking. Im not going to waste my time researching and reading what so and so's sisters brothers cousins neighbor said.

All I was offering the OP was what he ask for. REAL world experience with said firearms. And since 1990, Ive never broke a part or had a failure on a 92f, (3) US built 92fs, (1) 92G, (2) italian built 92fs, series Ive owned. They have ALL run like champs. And Im almost ashamed to say how bad I abused that 92F.
The crack problem was in high round count early military 92F's shooting +p ammo and beretta installed a relief cut & changed the locking block, which, as far as I know, fixed the problem.

I agree with luvmysr9. CAN it happpen, of course, anything can break if abused bad enough. DOES it happen in FS or M9 models, , I dont think so. IMO, its now a proverbial myth pushed by Beretta haters. The U.S. military has NOT reported any. The military M9 has proven itself to be bomb proof.

IMO, the Beretta 92fs/M9 is one of the most reliable combat pistols ever built, and haters gonna hate.
Sorry fella, without some concrete proof. I just dont buy it.



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Old December 31st, 2016, 04:36 AM   #47
 
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Take down, shooting, ultra reliable.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 05:07 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojasj View Post
Thank for all the input folks, I appreciate it. As this thread rolls on I think I've come to realize that I don't "need" another pistol, rather I "want" a full size pistol in 9mm. Perhaps what I should do is take the money I have for the pistol and put it toward more reloading supplies such as a new turret press to replace my single stage press and then shoot more.

Good, bad.. idea?
Bad, bad idea. You're overthinking this whole thing. Of course you NEED a full size 9mm.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 06:01 AM   #49
 
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I was late getting into the 9mm. Always a Colt 1911 45acp guy(Govnt, Commander, Officers). First 9 was the Baby Desert Eagle, all steel,full size-love it, great shooter. Then I needed the Beretta Mdl 9, larger, more capacity-again, really like it. Put away my Walther PPKS in favor of the Ruger LC9s for carry, good gun(just not enamored of the poly genre) so sold it for a Sig 938, now my carry gun, Bought myself a Colt LWC in 9mm for my Christmas present, only a few mags downrange, but like it also!
I would be happy with any of the above! All good shooters!
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Old December 31st, 2016, 06:29 AM   #50
 
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Originally Posted by hlg View Post
Bad, bad idea. You're overthinking this whole thing. Of course you NEED a full size 9mm.
Perhaps, but it seems I may have to wait a bit until things calm down. I figured prices would ave dropped a bit after the 2016 elections but it seems that I'm wrong. The bad part is that in NJ we need a "mother may I slip" in other words a Permit to Purchase a Pistol and it expires within 90 days of issue (my current one expires January 24th 2017) it can be extended for another 90 days and I may have to do just that.

I do like the way the CZ feels and I love hammer SA/DA hand guns. But the current prices for the CZ (in my neck of the woods) is more than I'm willing to pay for it. I may look at a 92FS this coming week if I can get to the local gun shop as they seem more readily available.

I do admit that I own one 9mm polymer pistol and it's a 9mm Shield. At first I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, but I quickly came to realize that the weight of the pistol vs. the weight of the trigger pull is horrible (in my opinion). It sits in my gun safe as ponder a future APEX trigger replacement for it or not.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 06:43 AM   #51
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojasj View Post
Thank for all the input folks, I appreciate it. As this thread rolls on I think I've come to realize that I don't "need" another pistol, rather I "want" a full size pistol in 9mm. Perhaps what I should do is take the money I have for the pistol and put it toward more reloading supplies such as a new turret press to replace my single stage press and then shoot more.

Good, bad.. idea?
It's not nearly as fun as buying another gun, but reloading equipment is one of the most bang for the buck purchases I've made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCD327 View Post
NO, Ive never heard of super dave. A quick look at his bio, two words stuck with me,, Blackwater & Glock armorer. Several of his videos show him shooting, praising and pushing glocks. Nuff said.

So look. With all due respect, Im NOT going to get into a debate about the 92 because some guy who calls himself super dave with a VERY questionable past, and who loves glocks said so. There are also forum that talk about his BIO being pure made up BS.
His bio ..... if you buy it (Reply #8) - Democratic Underground

Id rather see YOU post your links as to all this proof about 92fs or M9 slides cracking. Im not going to waste my time researching and reading what so and so's sisters brothers cousins neighbor said.

All I was offering the OP was what he ask for. REAL world experience with said firearms. And since 1990, Ive never broke a part or had a failure on a 92f, (3) US built 92fs, (1) 92G, (2) italian built 92fs, series Ive owned. They have ALL run like champs. And Im almost ashamed to say how bad I abused that 92F.
The crack problem was in high round count early military 92F's shooting +p ammo and beretta installed a relief cut & changed the locking block, which, as far as I know, fixed the problem.

I agree with luvmysr9. CAN it happpen, of course, anything can break if abused bad enough. DOES it happen in FS or M9 models, , I dont think so. IMO, its now a proverbial myth pushed by Beretta haters. The U.S. military has NOT reported any. The military M9 has proven itself to be bomb proof.

IMO, the Beretta 92fs/M9 is one of the most reliable combat pistols ever built, and haters gonna hate.
Sorry fella, without some concrete proof. I just dont buy it.
First of all, I'm not a hater AT ALL. That should be totally clear and obvious by the fact that I said I would gladly buy another.

Secondly, I'm not sure what your deal is with Glock armorers or people who have trained at Blackwater. I've done both myself. (Blackwater was a very intense week of training and the main instructor was a Navy SEAL involved with the invasion of Grenada.) I learned more there than in any of the other training I've had the opportunity to take.

As far as Super Dave... he doesn't "call himself" that. It's a name given to him by others. Perhaps you've heard of the Beretta 92G-SD... one of the most desirable variants of the gun. He is the one who developed it with Beretta and the story is that the "SD" actually stands for Super Dave.

The link you posted is TO JAMES YEAGER, NOT DAVE HARRINGTON. James Yeager is a blow-hard stooge. Dave Harrington is not. They don't even belong in the same conversation.

He's a retired senior weapons instructor at the Special Warfare School in Ft. Bragg, 23 years military experience, 16 years Army Special Forces experience, 3 time Meritorious Service Award recipient, 5 Army Commendation Medals, 4 Army Achievement Medals, 5 Good Conduct Medals, Airborne Wings, Jump Master, HALO Wings, Special Forces Tab, Ranger Tab, and Expert Infantry Badge. He's regarded as the premier authority on the Beretta 92FS by many in the industry including Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers. His bio is not "made up BS".

Lastly, Beretta themselves say that the Brigadier is beefed up to be more durable. Google for pics of cracked slides. Google for pics of sheared lugs. Google for pics of broken locking blocks. Of course, the fact that you can't find information about a guy on the internet without linking to the wrong person... well, you know, "Fella". I'm not sure what "proof" I can give you. You're mind is clearly made up and everything can be written off as "sister's brother's cousin's neighbor." I could say that I broke one myself and mail it to you for examination and I'm sure you'd write off as "abused".

Additionally, the "relief cut" was made in the locking block... not the slide. There was an additional cut made in the slide, but the specific purpose of this was for a new oversized hammer pin head that would keep the back half of the slide from smashing into the face of the shooter if the slide broke off -- it wasn't there to actually stop the cracking from happening.

The Gun Zone -- The M9 Slide Failures

Straight from the FBI:
…the Beretta M92 (was) built to U.S. Army specifications. One should understand that these specifications were:
--Only the frame has a specified service life.
--That service life is 5,000 rounds.
--The slide is a disposable part.
--99% of the military pistols will fire only 80 rounds per year.

The PA State Police also reportedly experienced a number of cracked slides with their .40 Beretta 96 pistols. This is the reason they ended up switching to Brigadier slides.

As I stated before, it's quite unlikely that the average person will experience any problems. In fact, my primary beef with everything I've read about this whole thing is NOT that there are rare failures... as you said, this stuff happens with every gun. I've had failures with nearly every manufacturer I've owned at some point. Ironically, Beretta along with HK are the only two brands of guns that I never had so much as a jam with. I like Beretta. I even named my dog "Benelli" (a Beretta owned company) for crying out loud. I'm not a hater. However, what bothered me about what I read is how Beretta shut down a number of folks with slide failures stating that it was a "wear and tear" part if their pistols were beyond their warranty period... that they wouldn't replace the slide free of charge. I seriously hope that these reports were wrong, because that's pretty lame customer service. However, considering what the FBI said above, circumstantial evidence leads me to believe that it's probably true.

Cracked Beretta 92FS slide - WeTheArmed.com
Cracked Beretta Slide | Lightfighter Tactical Forum

Of course, we've strayed SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO far off topic that I suppose that this is a conversation that probably should fall into the "agree to disagree" category. Anyone who really cares enough to do the research on their own probably has ample info to make their own decision in one direction or another.

Last edited by tacticalreload; December 31st, 2016 at 06:48 AM.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 08:28 AM   #52
 
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Originally Posted by rojasj View Post
Right now I have to say that I'm leaning to the 92FS. I'll have to rent both the CZ and the 92FS and see which one feels better.
THAT is a GREAT plan!

I admit that the CZs are getting expensive, but have you ever had a fine firearm decrease significantly in value? Think resale or estate..... But then I also admit that I will likely never own a Kimber or even a Sig.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 02:22 PM   #53
 
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Originally Posted by JRobyn View Post
THAT is a GREAT plan!

I admit that the CZs are getting expensive, but have you ever had a fine firearm decrease significantly in value? Think resale or estate..... But then I also admit that I will likely never own a Kimber or even a Sig.
Do yourself a favor and run far, far away from Kimbers. I've had three. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me three times and what the heck was I thinking.

As far as trying out both the CZ and the Beretta... here's what I think will happen. The CZ will feel much better in the hand, but the Beretta will have better fit and finish. (And by "finish", I don't literally mean the finish. I think that Beretta and CZ both use a similar coated finish that hides lot of machining / imperfections, btw.) While I like the feel of the CZ75 almost as much as any gun out there, they aren't the most "polished" of handguns.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 02:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojasj View Post
My two other choices were:

CZ75b which seems to be popular now in my neck of the woods and seems to be way over priced at over 700.00

Beretta 92FS. Any opinions on this one?

Thanks all...
I have both and they are "a hoot to shoot".
The CZ75B is more accurate in my estimation.






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Old December 31st, 2016, 03:31 PM   #55
 
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OK, since the OP is in NJ and will not be carrying this gun it's going to be a dedicated range toy. That makes the size and weight factors a bit less critical.

Both the Beretta 92 and CZ 75 are excellent pistols. I might give a slight edge to the CZ as a target pistol. Its inside the frame slide rails and all steel construction makes it both accurate and durable. The Beretta is a fine pistol as well.

There are other guns that will fill the OP's needs but money may be the limiting factor. On the inexpensive side, I have a Star Super B that was made in the 1970's and it shoots every bit as well as my Beretta 92, maybe even a bit better ! It also cost less than $300.
The down side is the gun required some work to get it up those standards. I did the work myself and it wasn't difficult or expensive but it wasn't a shooter right out of the box.

The Beretta 92 locking system is a Walter type tilting block and that system works well. The rotating barrel used in the Cougar is also a proven system and I wouldn't be the least bit worried about that system.

As for slides cracking on Beretta 92's, it's important to keep that in perspective. I've seen Berettas go tens of thousands of rounds without a hiccup. I don't think the 92 scaled up to the 96 in a 40 caliber held up very well but the 9mm model 92 is a solid pistol.
We'll probably never be able to prove this but I think the early Berettas adopted by the U.S. military were severely abused by people that wanted to see those guns fail. For those of you that were around during the testing to replace the 1911, you will recall those were very contentious times. There was a large segment of old dogs that sabotaged the 9mm pistols at every step. There were some broken slides but I'm not convinced that was due to a faulty design. Beretta did change the design so that a broken slide would be captured before departing the pistol but I think that was for safety and not an acknowledgement of a design flaw.
Interestingly, once the Berettas made it into the hands of the troops and there was no way for the old dogs to stop that transition, the failures tapered off.

The Beretta 92 had a long development starting all the back to the model 1951. The 92 went through several steps, including the 92, 92S and 92SB (which I had for many years and it was an outstanding pistol). The 92F and other newer models are well proven pistols with a long history.

Last edited by Petrol and Powder; January 1st, 2017 at 05:02 AM.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 11:01 AM   #56
 
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decision time on 9mm pistol

If you like the CZs, I'd check out the Canik clones.... I'm seeing more and more good reviews on them. I'm personally considering a C100. Supposed to have nice tight lockup, decent trigger, and of course, handy da/sa. And uses CZ mags and fits most holsters for CZ.


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Old January 6th, 2017, 07:55 PM   #57
 
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Myself being from NJ, I would say go with the Beretta 92 with 15 rounds. Good, durable, reliable weapon and if it must be metal rather than polymer its the way to go. Unless you want to keep the same manual of arms and go with the 9mm SR1911.......
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Old January 6th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #58
 
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Actually on second thought what about a Sig P226 or P229?
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Old January 6th, 2017, 08:48 PM   #59
 
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S&W 6904 if you can find a good one.


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Old January 6th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #60
 
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I know that you want to stay with steel but the Glock 19 is one of the best combat handguns out there IMHO. I have quite a few 9mm's and my Glock 19 stands above the crowd. A close second is my Ruger S9c Talo...

I have a nice Browning Hi-Power but I do not consider it a combat pistol these days. It was passed to me when my father passed away and is a safe queen now. It does get shot occasionally but it is too pretty to beat up all the time!
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