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Have the .45acp issues with the Redhawk been resolved?

This is a discussion on Have the .45acp issues with the Redhawk been resolved? within the Ruger Double Action forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; The Red HAS to headspace ACP off a clip, the chamber throat's too far forward in a .45 Colt-cut chamber to allow the much shorter ...


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Old February 19th, 2017, 11:26 AM   #31
 
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The Red HAS to headspace ACP off a clip, the chamber throat's too far forward in a .45 Colt-cut chamber to allow the much shorter ACP to headspace on it up front.

The Smith does PRIMARILY headspace off a clip, and in more recent Smiths it may ONLY reliably headspace with a clip.

For many decades, the older Smith .45 ACP revolvers had precisely dimensioned chambers that would allow perfectly functional headspacing off the rear "ledge" of the chamber throat, very much like a correctly set up pistol with its headspacing provided by the "ledge" at the forward end of the chamber.

No clip required to fire, the fired brass just had to be dropped or pulled or punched out individually, since without a clip there was no extraction feature.

Roughly 15 years ago, S&W changed the depth of the chamber cuts to the point where that ledge was positioned just far enough deeper to allow some rounds to slip deep enough into a chamber to create a light primer strike, and unreliable ignition when loaded without a clip.

I found that on at least three new Smiths.
The chambers were also not uniformly cut, the same round might seat to a proper "firing depth" in one chamber & stop, while that round might seat fractionally deeper in the next chamber.

Where my older Smith .45 ACPs would reliably fire any brand of commercial factory load I'd stick in 'em, the new guns would not.

Some would fire, some would be just pushed far enough forward on hammer fall to leave the round actually lightly jammed in the chamber with a light primer indent.

I have not tried a new Smith .45 ACP in a while, that issue may have been corrected in current production.

I'd feel comfortable in saying most Smith .45 ACP revolvers made prior to 2000 SHOULD reliably headspace & fire without clips, but after that I wouldn't count on it.

The two I still have are both pre-2000 guns & they'll correctly headspace & fire any commercial load I want to stick in 'em.
One is a 625.
Denis



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Old February 19th, 2017, 12:17 PM   #32
 
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Thanks DPris!

Thats exactly what I wanted to know. I really want the 625 to headspace off the rim/moonclip. That was my concern with the case mouth - variations with various types of reloads (bullet and case variations).

I now have a bit more confidence that the 625 can handle the wide variety of reloads I have access to, given the spacing off the rim/moonclip....and have a better chance at respectable accuracy (I'm not a competitive shooter but who doesnt want to hit what they are shooting at a reasonable distance)

I do not reload, but have a family member that competes and I buy some of his reloads to keep my stocks up.

Thanks for all the great information.
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Old February 19th, 2017, 12:35 PM   #33
 
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The 625 will (assuming the rest of the gun's put together right) reliably headspace & ignite just about anything in an ACP load you can stuff into it, WITH clips.
That accommodates all degrees of primer hardness, all normally-encountered minute differences in case lengths, a wide variety of bullet styles, and bypasses any variations in chamber cuts like those I mentioned.

The clips also give you the choice (if you're a handloader) of which crimp you might want to use- roll or taper.
Normally in an ACP cartridge it'd be a taper crimp, but if you want to play with something like heavier lead semi-wads, you can easily use a good roll crimp without compromising seating, headspace, or ignition.

I still have a Smith 629, and still have a limited Heritage edition 1917 version.
Sold the Model Of 1989, just too big & ungainly.
All three routinely did far better as a rule than the Reds I tested with ACPs.

If you want a dedicated .45 ACP DA revolver, I'd go with the Smith.
If you want the power & good accuracy of a rugged .45 Colt DA with a secondary ability to also shoot ACPs (with some load experimentation), the Ruger's still an option.
Denis
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Old February 20th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #34
 
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For me at least, this discussion has been very educational. I like reading about shooting experiences from people with way more experience than I have. Thanks to the posters for sharing and keeping the flame level very low.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 04:05 PM   #35
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachblaster View Post
I have been interested in buying a Blackhawk .45ACP/.45LC for some time. Finally found one with my desired 7-1/2'' barrel on consignment. Serial number dates it to 1981. 98% fit and finish with a perfect trigger. PM'd Ms. NCG to get her opinion on this model and she gave me her usual thoughtful and measured response. So I bought it. This one is a real sweet shooter. After a couple of range sessions I have found that it shoots a far tighter group with the .45 ACP. At 60 feet I can now manage a 3'' group with 50 rounds, while the .45LC is doing about 5''. This is with the factory iron sights and my aged eyes. Bench rest. Did I mention the PERFECT trigger? I will play with ammo choices, and eventually put a red dot on it. Lots of potential here. All of this of course is just FYI.
If you have reduced accuracy with the .45 Colt cylinder, you might measure the chamber throats of the .45 Colt cylinder. Many older NMBH had tight .45 Colt throats that played hell with accuracy. I have a couple of .45 Colt NMBH that I got for CAS around 2000. They both had interesting throats that were small, sometimes a bit oval, one was S shaped. Fortunately they all cleaned up with a .4525" reamer. Accuracy was significantly improved.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 04:08 PM   #36
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biquer View Post
I guess that I understand the attraction of a convertible ACP/Colt, considering the ammo cost difference.
On the other hand, I don't understand the same for the reloader. It costs about the same to reload either, assuming standard .45 Colt pressures.
I'm never willing to concede compromised accuracy going in.
That's why I only use .38 Special brass in .38 Special revolvers.

What am I missing?
For those of us who shot CAS, loading mouse fart loads was pretty typical. Light loads with small powder charges in voluminous .45 Colt cases is a bit iffy; using .45 ACP or better yet .45 AR cases is safer. I had my .45 ACP cylinders trimmed to also take .45 AR, and I prefer to use the AR cases for light range work. I also use them in a S&W 625.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 04:23 PM   #37
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPris View Post
The Red HAS to headspace ACP off a clip, the chamber throat's too far forward in a .45 Colt-cut chamber to allow the much shorter ACP to headspace on it up front.

The Smith does PRIMARILY headspace off a clip, and in more recent Smiths it may ONLY reliably headspace with a clip.

For many decades, the older Smith .45 ACP revolvers had precisely dimensioned chambers that would allow perfectly functional headspacing off the rear "ledge" of the chamber throat, very much like a correctly set up pistol with its headspacing provided by the "ledge" at the forward end of the chamber.

No clip required to fire, the fired brass just had to be dropped or pulled or punched out individually, since without a clip there was no extraction feature.

Roughly 15 years ago, S&W changed the depth of the chamber cuts to the point where that ledge was positioned just far enough deeper to allow some rounds to slip deep enough into a chamber to create a light primer strike, and unreliable ignition when loaded without a clip.

I found that on at least three new Smiths.
The chambers were also not uniformly cut, the same round might seat to a proper "firing depth" in one chamber & stop, while that round might seat fractionally deeper in the next chamber.

Where my older Smith .45 ACPs would reliably fire any brand of commercial factory load I'd stick in 'em, the new guns would not.

Some would fire, some would be just pushed far enough forward on hammer fall to leave the round actually lightly jammed in the chamber with a light primer indent.

I have not tried a new Smith .45 ACP in a while, that issue may have been corrected in current production.

I'd feel comfortable in saying most Smith .45 ACP revolvers made prior to 2000 SHOULD reliably headspace & fire without clips, but after that I wouldn't count on it.

The two I still have are both pre-2000 guns & they'll correctly headspace & fire any commercial load I want to stick in 'em.
One is a 625.
Denis
The longer chambers of the more recent 625's is the main reason some of us have put in slightly longer firing pins. That seems to handle the problem. The other potential cure is to use .45 AR brass, which I prefer.
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Old February 26th, 2017, 05:12 PM   #38
 
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Besides shortening the firing pins at the factory, and the variable chamber depths, S&W also moved the seating notch to slightly re-position the mainspring inside the grip frame.

I had a longer firing pin installed in one of my ACP N-Frames, the transitional 625.
MIMS, but prior to the lock.
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Old March 11th, 2017, 07:56 PM   #39
 
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My cylinder always gets super tight and almost locks up with the clips. I've decided that I want to get a SRH 454 cylinder and probably sell this cylinder. I love the colt and I love the round butt. 45 acp is for webleys and smiths. I should send the gun in, but I've never gotten around to it.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #40
 
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My .45 LC/ACP Redhawk is a 2014 production, I've had it for 2 years now.

I returned it to Ruger for service due to a "gag" in the action with .45 ACP. They replaced/adjusted the crane assembly, came back "test fired OK".

OK........so, where I'm at now, it still "gags" in DA and SA when the gun heats up when being fired with the factory and the TK Customs moonclips. With Ranch Products moon clips, after 200 rounds fired with these clips, no issues noted. I don't know if it hasn't "happened" to gag with the Ranch Products clips, I just got lucky and hasn't done so yet, but I will continue to test the Ranch Products clips. I have about 50 of them, they're relatively cheap so I picked up a big pack of them. I plan to load them all up, with various ammo, and run them through rapidly to see if the problem shows itself. If the Ranch Product clips check out OK, my simple solution will be to just get my hands on several 100 of them, and just use those.

I recently ran 50 rounds of .45 Long Colt through the gun, rapidly, and no issues.

Accuracy with the .45 ACP (with the clips that worked) was good enough to place as the 2nd place revolver shooter in a pistol match this summer, I was able to hit bowling pins and metal squirrels at 15-20 yards in DA with .45 ACP.

It obviously shoots better with .45 LC, it looks like my search for a dedicated .45 ACP double action continues, and I will continue to use the Redhawk to shoot both rounds but will primarily become a .45 LC. I'll probably just use my C&R to get an older commercial S&W 1917 for .45 ACP shooting.
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