JonRugerInWA

I have adjustable sights on my Security Six (factory rear with Millett Orange Bar front) and GP100 (Millet rear/Orange Bar front). I've never had a problem with these, or any other adjustable revolver sights.

Recently I contemplated getting a fixed-sight Security Six, justifying it in my mind for the additional toughness of the fixed rear sight (not that I necessarily need any such justification to acquire another Security Six!). But that raised a question in my mind: Just how vulnerable ARE adjustable rear sights to damage, and is this really a issue? In the back of my my mind I'm thinking that for all practical purposes it probably isn't, and the adjustable rears are just fine for pretty much anything other than dropping on a hard surface-as I recall, one of the more popular issue police revolvers of the '70s and '80s was the Smith & Wesson 686, which had one of the more exposed adjustable rear sight blades. And, due to the size of the rear sight notch/front sight blade, an adjustable sight seems to be easier to quickly acquire, in my experience with a previous fixed-sight GP100.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Best, Jon

stantheman86

Well, I'm kind of biased as a fixed sight revolver fanatic, but I VASTLY prefer a well-regulated fixed sight revolver over an adjustable sight any day.I have yet to shoot a Ruger fixed sight that wasn't regulated to point of aim with the load it was designed for, usually 158 gr. .357 or .38.

To me the perfect sight picture is to apply a product called "Bright Sights" to the front ramp of a fixed sight revolver and leave the rear sight notch "bare". I prefer the red paint, sometimes the orange. I have many security and police fixed sight revolvers that have the front and rear sights painted. It's a non-permanent add on, and as a collector I prefer to not alter my revolvers from their "duty" status. A touch of red sight paint is a durable but removable option that greatly improves the sight picture on a fixed sight revolver.I usually only use the paint on S&W fixed sight guns like Model 10's and 64's, since I find the Ruger guns to have a deeper rear sight notch and a more visible front ramp so I normally leave these without paint.

I also prefer the low, clean sight picture vs. the higher hold required for adjustable sights, but that's just me. I also much prefer the clean lines and look of a fixed sight revolver. I have been able to put groups on a silhouette at 100 yards with .357 loads with my 4" fixed sight guns, so to me I see no handicap to my shooting and don't see any handicap to practical shooting vs. adjustable sights. The only advantage to adjustable sights I see, is if you prefer a different loading other than the "duty" load they are regulated for, and want a precise point of impact. For example most of my .357 fixed sight guns hit low with light .38 Special loads. But these were police guns, so cops weren't expected to shoot for qualifying, training or for "real" with anything other than the 158 gr. load so that's what they were set for.

Even lots of holster carry will loosen up the rear sight on a Ruger Security Six or GP100. I have a security trade in GP100 4" stainless with lots of holster "buffing" and the rear sight will move side to side in the channel, because daily holstering and carry have enlarged the hole in the rear sight assembly to the point where my shots will "string" horizontally. I have plans to replace the rear sight on this one.

S&W sights are prone to the same, the older single screw rear sight assemblies can have enlargement of the screw hole and make the sight loose. There's a reason why I believe it's Bowen, offers the "Extreme Duty" rear sight for S&W revolvers, which is a tough fixed sight that replaces the rear sights on newer S&W revolvers.

Yes, many PD's carried adjustable sight revolvers, but in my collection I have had several ex-police revolvers with adjustable sights that had the rear blades mashed forward, bent, loose or otherwise battered.

As to the 686 question, I'll post a pic of my S&W 581, which is a fixed sight version of the 586. There is (was) also a 681 which is the stainless version. These were made by S&W for the sole purpose of attracting the police market and they were supposed to be the "ultimate" police revolver but some officers didn't like the weight.

If you found a fixed sight Ruger marked Security Six than yes, BUY IT! Because it's a very early collectible gun, the fixed sight version of the Security Six was soon afterwards renamed the Police Service Six.

Below is my S&W 581, along with my Police Service Six. Both gave decades of good service to officers who carried them and to this day I have yet to meet an older or retired cop who didn't miss their Service Six when their PD switched to Glocks.

Also is a pic of a good idea of how sight paint can make a fixed sight gun just as effective as those red insert sights everybody is seeking out for their GP100's. 10 minutes and a $4 bottle of Bright Sights Orange paint and this Speed Six lines up the sights like a whole new gun! if you decide you don't like it some acetone takes it right off, but normal use like holster carry will not.

Bat Guano

I carried both the Service Six and the Security Six 4" revolvers as a plainclothes LEO from 1981-1994. I also was a firearms instructor and shot a fair amount of IPSC in those days. I took care of my guns but did not baby them, as both were shot with a lot of hot 125 grain loads and had barrels replaced by the factory for forcing cone erosion.

My take on fixed/adjustable sights was that there is not much if any downside to the Ruger adjustables. Guns, including mine, got dropped occasionally. More often the guns and sights got banged around going in and out of "gun boxes" in jails. The boxes were usually unpadded steel and a a bit on the small side, and no matter how careful you tried to be, the gun would go "clunk" a lot. Rather annoying as I, not the govt., owned the gun. However it never affected anything.

The other differences were that the adjustables had a higher front sight and were easier to pick up in a hurry than some of the fixed sights. In addition you could adjust them for precise impact. I liked that; but apparently the later fixed sight guns had higher front sights and a deeper rear sight "wallow" as the sights stood out much better. You also got used to having w/c loads hit about 3-4" higher whereas .357s shot dead on. Over time I used both the 110 gr. and the 125 gr. .357 loads and at practical ranges (0-20 yds) it made no difference. When people were switching to Glocks and SIGs I was quite satisfied with my "obsolete" wheelguns and used them right up to the day I retired.

So I would say that there was no real issue involved at all. Both guns served me well and I still have them and use them. Plus I have a "few" more of both persuasions. I would hate to run out of "Sixes".

stantheman86

I also have a Speed Six 4" that for some reason will hit dead on with pretty much anything I feed it, while the Service Six pictured above hits very low with everything I've tried in it so far, but I haven't got a chance to really "wring" this gun out yet so I don't know what it likes yet.

The only downsides, for me, with fixed sights are the occasional revolver that it seems the factory "forgot" to sight in. I have none like this, but a few that are not quite perfect. My S&W 64-7 hits about 3" to the left even at 15 yards or so, and I just have to deal with it. I had thought it was just me pulling the shots, but from the steadiest rest I could shoot from, still hits left in SA. Ironically if I get a "flash" sight picture and shoot in fast DA it will hit where I aim because I tend to pull right in DA shooting.......so maybe it did work out after all, I just have to shoot this gun in fast DA then!

I'm not a big Colt guy but I have a Police Postive that has the worst regulated fixed sights that I think exist. It hits so low and left with any .38 I try in it, I have to aim high and right off the paper at 15-20 yards to even get a hole somewhere on the target. Maybe this is why I'm not a Colt fan......it's a beautiful little revolver, from the 30's and the fitting is perfect, the gun just doesn't shoot worth a damn.

I also have a 6" S&W Model 10-5 that couldn't be any more dead on with any .38 I put through it. 25 yard groups are astonishing with this early 70's era Smith, most people who weren't "in the know" would not believe those groups came from a "crude sighted gun" like that. 1" or so groups at 25 are the norm with this piece and I don't think any "perp" would have been safe at 100 yards if this were the case during this piece's days as a LEO revolver. It looks like crap from rust pitting in spots, because of poor storage and neglect from a past owner, but shoots like a match pistol. It will shoot as well as my 8 3/8" Model 17 .38 target revolver, which says a lot given that the 17 was made as a dedicated target revolver and it's groups at 25 yards can't be told apart from a "service" revolver with fixed sights.

Rifleman336

Stantheman86 pretty much said it all. I used a S&W 681 (fixed sighted 686) that I hope to get rebuilt, soon.

As for adjustable sights they also can slow down a draw in poorer designed holsters.

I had a place close to me that was the store front for Southern Ohio Gun, and they had "deals" but the police trade in adjustable sight revolvers were basket cases to say the least. For the good ones were reserved for dealer sales. So you could get a smith or Ruger cheap but it'd be a "fixer upper" for sure. And to look at them, one could for sure say they're more fragile than fixed sighted models.

But I like the Idea of Hamilton Bowen's "Rough Country" adjustable rear sight or Cylinder & Slide's "Extreme Duty" rear sight to make it into a rugged fixed sight.

Rifleman 336

stantheman86

I have seen a few very well holster worn adjustable sighted S&W and Ruger revolvers with the front and rear sights trashed. Most of these were likely security company trades rather than police, or maybe even both since some security companies would just buy lots of 50-100 ex-police revolvers wholesale in the 90's when PD's went to Glocks, etc, and then thrash these even more and then trade them in for something else. Needless to say unless you plan on replacing rear sights the fixed sight revolvers would be the better deal out of these. My GP100 trade in is a prime example of this, from what I heard they went from Tennessee State corrections, to a federal contract security company and then surplused to a distributor who sold them for $300 each. It was a great deal, the gun looks hardly fired but has deep scratches and buffing all over it, perfect for a shooter.......but mine now needs a new rear sight which might be a Bowen "Rough Country" adjustable.

Smaller security companies are obviously privately owned and they will go for the most cost effective means to buy weapons for their guard force so they will buy ex PD revolvers, and now when PD's trade in older Gen 1 or 2 Glocks for new stuff they will buy these I have seen these ex-security revolvers and a lot of them are good deals, they look THRASHED but don't have many rounds through them. It's often a mix of stuff like S&W Model 10 HB's, Ruger Security Six and Taurus 82's. Sometimes the Taurus guns are even a good deal for plinkers because a trashed looking Taurus can be haggled down to like $100 if the dealer has had it sitting around for a while.

I have worked several security jobs, and the turnover is high and the guards treat the guns with as much regard as a flashlight. I was at a job and the company switched from a mix of S&W M10's and 15's, and Service Sixes,probably from the local PD's who had in turn went to Glock, they didn't care that they were a mix of .38 and .357 guns because they used +P in all of them, and range sessions were seldom. When I got there they had already switched to Glock 22's.

I really, really wish Bowen would offer something like the Extreme Duty fixed sight for the GP100. I wouldn't switch out the stock sights on a Security Six, but a 6" stainless GP with a fixed sight would be pretty awesome to me. I guess the Rough Country is the next best thing, they seem pretty rugged.

bub

While there probably really isn't that much difference in durability, the adjustable sighted guns are more fragile. They are a separate piece from the frame and stick up above the frame, meaning that they are easier to smack and hit off of stuff.

While they aren't revolvers, I'll use some of the guns at my PD as examples. If you open carry a gun daily, eventually you WILL hit the sights off of something. The door frames at my PD are permanently scarred and dinged at about waist height from guys hitting their guns off of them. The Dept issue guns have lots of dings on the sides of the rear sights from guys hitting them off of things. I ran out the door for a call one time and hit my Glock 21 off of the door frame. I checked it after the call, only to find the rear sight halfway out of the slide dovetail from the impact. These were all fixed sights, so they are easy to fix, but demonstrate how easy it is to do.

Having said that, typical revolver adjustable sights are rugged beasts. Short of dropping one directly on the rear sight or falling directly on the rear sight with the gun holstered, it shouldn't be a problem. However, if it was me and the gun was to be a dedicated carry gun, I think I'd go for fixed sights. Fixed sights just have less to go wrong (you'd have to damage the frame or barrel themselves to significantly damage a revolver's fixed sights) and are MUCH less likely to get snagged on the draw. If it was a fun gun, range gun, collectible gun or anything other than a dedicated carry gun, adjustable will work just fine. If you just want a fixed sight model to put in your collection or mess around with, go for it! It's amazing how accurate fixed sight guns can be, if the shooter does his part and they are even close to well regulated!

Bub

stantheman86

Excellent post, can't say it any better myself!

For me personally I just prefer the way fixed sight guns look and handle and also I like the sight picture better.

With creative use of Bright Sights paint I think I can have the best of both worlds, a clean, low sight picture and a clean looking revolver.

Some people do think fixed sight guns aren't capable of great accuracy, but I read a post from a retired cop who said he used to pop balloons at 200 yards with a S&W J-frame .38 snub just to show that a skilled shooter can engage targets at a distance even with the "lowly" .38 snub!

JonRugerInWA

Thanks for the excellent input, everyone. The jury (and Wifely Review Board determination) are still out. The good news is that my Security Six is carried in a Blade-Tech kydex holster, which does an excellent job of shielding the rear sight as well as expediting my draw, so in that sense I've got a pretty good combination going.

But of course there's still the allure of a late-production, heavy barrel dished-recoil shield fixed sight Service Six on my horizon (with the added advantage of already having the necessary holstering, speedloaders, etc.). My only conceptual issue is that in my experience most Ruger fixed-sight DA revolvers are set up for a 6 o'clock hold with 158 gr .357 magnum loads, and my carry/competition load of preference is .38 Special 125 gr +P.... we'll see.

Best, Jon

stantheman86

You can always get a Service Six chambered in .38 Special,they are fairly common..... my 4" Speed Six in .38 still shoots low with light .38's though, I need to find the +P load it was regulated for, probably 158 gr.

I have a strange affection for the Sixes and GP's chambered in .38, still not totally sure why......

bub

stantheman86, I'd forgotten about this incident till you posted about the guy shooting at 200 yds with the fixed sight revolver.

When I went through the Police Academy in the winter of 1990-1991, one of the firearms instructors was an older Detective for the Dept sponsoring the Academy. He carried, IIRC, a 2 1/2" (maybe 3", I don't remember but it was a snubbie) S&W M19, the blued, 6 shot, snub barrel, .357 revolver with fixed sights. Quite a few of the guys going through the Academy made fun of him (but not to his face) since, at the time, LE agencies were switching in droves to autos and the vast majority of our class and this Dept carried autos. And, as we all know, you're just not a high-speed, low-drag operator (as we thought we were!) unless you carry the latest, greatest wonderauto! Of course, he heard about the ribbing, in the way that instructors always seem to know what is going on.

The last range day, we had time and ammo left over after our final qualification course, so we had a fun day. We were all shooting, thinking we were big and bad, when this Detective comes to the line. We had been shooting at about 30', so he clears the line and takes up back to about the 75 yard line. He proceeds to pull his revolver and put all 6 shots, rapid fire as fast as he could pull the trigger, into a group that you could cover with your palm. He then proceeded to go man-on-man against anyone that cared to try him and beat everyone. His reloads with an HKS speedloader were so fast that he was consistently beating the guys reloading their autos. Needless to say, we didn't make fun of him again and came to have a GREAT respect for native ability and carrying and shooting the same gun for 20+ years.

Sorry, a little off topic, but stantheman's post jogged my memory. And, it does relate to fixed sight revolvers, in a way.

Bub

stantheman86

That's why it's never wise to make fun of an old salty guy who carries a wheelgun! Because chances are he's damn good at using it! Some of these guys are so good at instinctive shooting I don't think they even use the sights anymore, if only for a "flash" sight picture. That old guy could probably put 18 rounds into a tight group before I even got my first 6 out with any accuracy.

That's another reason why I like fixed sights, too.......they make you look "salty" Plus they've worked on revolvers since Sam Colt cranked his first one out of Paterson, NJ over 150 years ago so why mess with success.

That's part of the reason I can't wait to get time to do more shooting and actually get good with my stable of revolvers, so all the kids who just bought their first 9mm pop-o-matic or Glock fo-tay can ask me why I shoot an "old revolver" and then I can watch them shoot buckshot pattern groups with their guns and then cut out the center mass X-ring at 25 yards with a wheelgun.

I also shoot quite a few of my pop-o-matics, but I also feel like more of a He Man letting loose with some nuclear-missile blast .357's and .44's. I saw this one guy shoot some kind of home-brewed .44 at like 2 or 3 feet to a paper silhouette and the paper actually caught on fire. Handloading is popular where I live and some of these guys load their stuff so hot I wonder how safe it really is! You swear a guy's shooting a 30-06 or something and you look over and he has a Super Redhawk.

PRK 41

Most All of my revolvers have adjustable sights and other then a possible collector only piece they always will. I enjoy the ability to accurately shoot several handloads with my guns. I do on occasion carry a fixed sighe revolver as my concealed piece, but as always the gun is only accurate with one load. At very close range this is not a problem.
Remember that years ago people were afraid to put a scope on a rifle for the same reasons some fear adjustable sights on a revolver. Both have come a long way and I would not be without either.

stantheman86

I do have one revolver where adjustable sights really shine, that's on my S&W 8 3/8" Model 14. Once I got it dialed in with the light .38 wadcutters I use in it, it can cut ragged holes at 25 yards. If the shooter does their part it will hit right where the sights point.

Overall the fixed sight guns for me just represent overall utility, they sacrifice a little bit of the ability to "fine tune" the sights to a particular load, and adjustable sights are truly at home on the target range.

So far, out of the 100 plus rifles I own, none wears a scope..I de-scoped my one Mosin that had one mounted...I did get a B-Square mount for my beater Enfield No. 4 a few years back but haven't got around to getting it set up. I just never was a scope guy, the only optic so far that I ever liked was the ACOG that was on my M4 in the Army. I tried optics on some of my rifles, anything over maybe 4x and I just don't like it.

I have a bunch of iron sighted rifles, and my fixed sight revolvers are starting to outnumber my adjustable sight stuff.......maybe I'm becoming one of those "anti technologists" I am about one step away from throwing my cell phone out the window, but I couldn't live without the internet though.

JonRugerInWA

Here's a somewhat correlated question: Will merely holstering my adjustable sighted Security-Six where there's some rubbing of the rear sight blade against the leather of the holster cause the sight blade to be moved from its setting in the sight body? After seeing the description and exploded view in Kuhnhausen's book makes me doubt this, as the screw-and-spring setting and retention system looks pretty resiliant to normal rubbing and jars/bumping, but I'd be interested in getting others' feedback (I have a replica of the WWII US Navy Victory shoulder/tanker-type holster which I plan on using with the Security Six).

Best, Jon