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.224 sabot load for Ruger Scout

This is a discussion on .224 sabot load for Ruger Scout within the Ruger Bolt Action forums, part of the Rifle & Shotgun Forum category; Have been experimenting with cast bullets as a means around these shortages and ran across this outfit: The Bull Shop PO Box 245 Saco, MT ...


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Old May 15th, 2013, 12:49 PM   #1
 
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.224 sabot load for Ruger Scout

Have been experimenting with cast bullets as a means around these shortages and ran across this outfit:

The Bull Shop
PO Box 245
Saco, MT 59261

bullshop@nemont.net

They have some expertise with such "strange stuff", and he has an Australian mold for a bullet which seems to work well with sabots. Still early in my experiments - but I haven't seen a keyhole out of these yet.





Presently using 15 gr of Trail Boss in .308. Performance of this combination approximates the .22 Hornet. Once other powders come in, I hope to build a virtual .223 and a 22-250 in similar fashion.




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Old May 19th, 2013, 10:20 AM   #2
 
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That looks slick.

What kind of accuracy are you getting?

Was it easy to keep the Sabot and the bullet together when loading?

Did you use a standard die?

How does it feed from the magazine?

Does the plastic leave much of a deposit in the barrel?

Have you shot any through a chronograph?

I read some where the Bullshop is going away. Do you know anything about that?

Sorry for all the questions but you have peaked my interest and did I say it looks slick. That would be a great way to make a small game load to carry in the field. Thanks for the post.

Best regards,

Roadie
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Old May 19th, 2013, 11:35 AM   #3
 
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Looks interesting for sure....the life of a reloader...
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Old May 19th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #4
 
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Very interested in this...please keep us updated.
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Old May 23rd, 2013, 03:31 PM   #5
 
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Interesting, indeed. I toyed with the Remington Accelerators before they went extinct. I have since reloaded the 308 sabots with jacketed 55 grain bullets, but didn't keep the data. I shot them in an M1A and recall they were quite accurate. But cast bullets, that is quite a challenge. Yes, let us hear of your success.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 10:24 AM   #6
 
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Responses inserted....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadie View Post
That looks slick.

*What kind of accuracy are you getting?*



More variance than I'd like, but I'm still fighting a lot of misinformation gleaned from the web. Stuff like crimping the sabot, heat sealed glues...pretty much endless.

Have seen enough evidence confirming those rare accounts of "shoots as well as my gun" to keep going. Typically, my experimental loads (with the stupids) group within a couple of inches. I still get flyers though (not as bad as before).

I did decide early on that *both* stories "no accuracy" or "full accuracy" were correct. Believe that is *exactly* what these shooters were seeing. There was just no other plausible explanation for these stories other than "both are true".

It's been my experience that people in shooting circles are extremely generous with what they've learned. Therefore, I believed it almost impossible that falsehoods were being planted.

*Both* stories are absolutely true.




*Was it easy to keep the Sabot and the bullet together when loading?*


That was never a problem with anything I tried. Damaging the sabot petals was. All that went away once lee delivered my custom press insert. ~$13 - and all problems went away.

*DON'T* crimp the sabot. It spreads the petals and causes grief somehow.





*Did you use a standard die?*


Not any more. And I don't recommend it. Lee seems to know their stuff, and they turn around such requests in a week.

I just neck size with Lee's collet die, then push the sabot in with this custom press. Never had a single issue. Have a neck sizer sitting in "reserve" - but never needed to use it.





*How does it feed from the magazine?*


Didn't try the steel magazine, but fed easily from the Ruger poly mags.





*Does the plastic leave much of a deposit in the barrel?*


Have read the accounts of this - but have never witnessed myself, and I've fired a lot of these - including the "official" Remingtons. Still wary, but am beginning to let my guard down a bit.





*Have you shot any through a chronograph?*


No. And I probably wouldn't even if I had one. Have read too many accounts of damaged chronographs due to those sabots.

This is kinda low budget - so I just rely on Quickload estimates.





*I read some where the Bullshop is going away. Do you know anything about that?*

No. (shrugging) Just took delivery of 2000ea of these bullets. He turned that order really quick. Even when I suggested he take his time and work them in.

He's been a big help. It likely took some effort to dig up his old notes, which he generously shared. This guy probably shoots 30-100X what I'll ever shoot ...so some of his observations undoubtedly saved me a lot of time.





*Sorry for all the questions but you have peaked my interest and did I say it looks slick. That would be a great way to make a small game load to carry in the field. Thanks for the post.*


Yeah, that was my thinking too. A .308 is just too much for many tasks, and it can get expensive to feed. While the addition of a 5 cent sabot is not moving one in the right direction - it still nets out less than .30 cal projectiles.

Best regards,

Roadie

Will soon retest my Trail Boss load with undamaged sabot petals, and have assembled a few "Frankenloads" from my limited Remington Accelerator inventory.

Load #1 Replaces the Remington PSP with my cast bullet While retaining the remington sabot.

Load #2 Replaces the entire Remington projectile assembly with a JD Components sabot + lead bullet.


Wish I had 20ea for a statistically valid test - but Remington .308 accelerators are very scarce now

Last edited by Reciprocate; May 25th, 2013 at 10:28 AM.
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Old May 25th, 2013, 10:26 AM   #7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimomite View Post
Interesting, indeed. I toyed with the Remington Accelerators before they went extinct. I have since reloaded the 308 sabots with jacketed 55 grain bullets, but didn't keep the data. I shot them in an M1A and recall they were quite accurate. But cast bullets, that is quite a challenge. Yes, let us hear of your success.

What's weird is: "I went to those cast bullets because the jacketed were not performing well."


Something is going on - but I can only speculate. Don't really *know* anything
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Old May 27th, 2013, 06:24 PM   #8
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadie View Post
That looks slick.

What kind of accuracy are you getting?

Was it easy to keep the Sabot and the bullet together when loading?

Did you use a standard die?

How does it feed from the magazine?

Does the plastic leave much of a deposit in the barrel?

Have you shot any through a chronograph?

I read some where the Bullshop is going away. Do you know anything about that?

Sorry for all the questions but you have peaked my interest and did I say it looks slick. That would be a great way to make a small game load to carry in the field. Thanks for the post.

Best regards,

Roadie
Still a very feeble hypothesis, but I believe these are the issues with sabots:

1. The ability of the plastic sabot to transfer spin to the actual bullet. I can't imagine a way to measure this..but am coming to believe this may be a factor. That may be why rough, non jacketed bullets with masses concentrated within the sabot itself seem to fly better. My suspicion is that only the sabot cup has any function - the petals are there only for release (though they may also serve a small retaining or "tip" prevention function). Have had zero problems with release when the sabots are left uncrimped - they all open perfectly. Bull shop really helped here.

2. Heat. Not clear to me yet. Just a suggestion that accuracy declines under rapid fire conditions. Particularly with the full (hot) Remington accelerator loads (which might already be suffering from their long projectiles). Could the sabot cup be deteriorating before bullet release?

3. Ignition speed may be critical. The evidence I've collected suggests only the fastest powders work well. Unfortunately, some pistol powders are out of reach due to warnings from the manufacturer. This leaves only a very limited powder selection available for safe testing.

Quickload is useful for broad sketches...but one really needs manufacturer loading support before jumping in. Here are some current candidates with high load densities. I figure most if not all will be "untestable" without manufacturer help. Note: Case volume was computed from 20ea samples of fired cases, then reducing that amount by three standard deviations. Thus Trail Boss screen suggests compressed load (but it isn't).




















The original Remington Accelerator used 40.2 grains of powder, and to date, they have not revealed it's identity.

The sabot manufacturer lists IMR-4198 and Reloder 7 as suggested powders (and both are on backorder), but frankly I'm hoping the Lapua folks will take pity and provide some guidance for their powders. I'm particularly interested in their "Tin Star" and N110 products. Both seem well suited for this task.
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Old June 3rd, 2013, 12:42 PM   #9
 
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Shutting down for several months ......

until primer and powder back orders clear. Signing off with two pieces of puzzle.


First, a completed virtual hornet load for the .308:

15 grains of Trail Boss under Bullshop bullet CBE 22/55 fngc , COL ~2.41in, DO NOT CRIMP! My cases were neck sized with the Lee collet die, and I used their custom sabot press for install.

This is a 50 yd range I use (concrete floor for recovering sabots), 20 shots fired for statistical significance with other variables controlled "best i could".



This is a good general purpose plinking or youth load. It's very mild, and the powder burns clean. Have shot hundreds of these at one sitting with charges between 9.5gr and 15gr. Barrel was still pretty clean.

YOU MUST EXERCISE CAUTION NOT TO COMPRESS THIS LOAD. Trail Boss is very safe, but compressing is "asking for it".




And here is my only test for real accelerator level performance. These are actual Remington accelerators with the PSP bullets removed, then replaced by the Bullshop bullet. Weights are near identical, so this should be 3800fps+:



A Franken load.....Note the round holes. No wobbles or bullet blowups.

Sorry for the small sample size...my inventory is very limited now. These are no longer manufactured.


Here are the recovered Franken sabots:




No sabot performance difference was noted - though the Remingtons seemed to "splay" wider and typically grounded @20 ft instead of 35ft. Rifling was clearly defined on both units even at these speeds.

IMO, performance of the Franken Bullshop cast exceeds Remington OEM (though I'm certain theirs will travel further). Suspect they were optimizing for range instead of bulletproof stability as I've had problems keeping the stock Remingtons consistent.
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