Cariboo Country

The new RGSR was announced at the SHOT Show and the current 'Rifle' magazine has a full page ad about the rifle.
While I am a fan of the .308, stemming from long experience with it in Regular Army (FN C1 FAL -21" barrel) and own four rifles in the calibre, the new Ruger is one I don't think I'll acquire.
I like it's utilitarian look (stepped barrel like a Mauser, rail, integral scope mounts as well, etc.) and features like the 10 rd magazine, but - a 16-1/2" barrel! One word comes to mind - 'Muzzleblast!' The current buzz word for muzzleblast is 'sound signature'.
I remember when the Rem 788 was current and available in .308. We jumped all over it for IPSC 'Practical Rifle' matches. Rem offered a stubby carbine with 18-1/2" which seemed ideal - until you fired it! I remember one that went through four owners in a short time span due to the uncomfortable muzzleblast. With surplus ammo, there was a visible fireball in dim light; blinding in the dark.
Two of my .308s are 788s, but with 22" barrels. Muzzleblast is not a problem.
The shortest of my .308s is a Husqvarna with a 20" barrel and it is noticeably louder than the 788s. The muzzlebreak on the RGSR looks 'tacticool', but will only exacerbate the problem.
We'll see how the market reacts to this new Ruger offering.

dkaiser

Appreciate the input Cariboo...as this was also a concern of mine with this rifle, even though it looks super cool!

advaitin

I'm surprised that Gunsite has allowed the use of its name. It barely qualifies as a scout by Col. Cooper's standards:

* An unloaded weight, with accessories, of 3 kg (6.6 lbs); with 3.5 kilograms (7.7 lbs) the maximum acceptable.
* An overall length of 1 meter (39.4 in.) or less.
* A forward-mounted telescopic sight of low magnification, typically 2-3 diameters. This preserves the shooter's peripheral vision, keeps the ejection port open to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the rifle, and eliminates any chance of the scope striking one's brow during recoil. Cooper has stated that a telescopic sight is not mandatory.
* Ghost ring auxiliary iron sights: a rear sight consisting of a receiver-mounted large-aperture thin ring, and typically a square post front sight.
* A "Ching" or "CW" sling. Against common practice, Cooper advocated the use of a sling as a shooting aid. The Ching sling offers the convenience of a carrying strap and the steadiness of a target shooter's sling with the speed of a biathlete's sling. (The CW sling is a simpler version of a Ching sling, consisting of a single strap.)
* A standard chambering of .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm NATO or 7mm-08 Remington for locales that forbid civilian ownership of cartridges in chamberings adopted by military forces or for its "slightly better ballistics."[2] As Cooper wrote, "A true Scout comes in .308 or 7mm-08."[3] The .243 Winchester is an alternative for young, small-framed, or recoil-shy people, but needs a 22" barrel. Cooper also commissioned "Lion Scout," chambered for the .350 Remington Magnum cartridge.
* Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

These features dictated short, thin barrels, synthetic stocks, and bolt actions. Other optional features included a retractable bipod, detachable magazines, a butt magazine, and an accessory rail for lights and other attachments. The addition of some of these features often render the rifle technically not a scout as originally defined, but this has come to be accepted by many as still conforming to the spirit if not the letter of the concept

advaitin

I have two bolt-action rifles based on the scout concept. Both are Steyrs and I note that in the promotional materials no mention is made of the Steyr scouts. Cooper liked the Steyr design, but had some problems with the marketing that Steyr chose to do. They made a .223, which Cooper despised. And he was a bit of an apologist for the cost of the rifles, which were too expensive for most tastes. I bought mine at bargain rates after they began to fall out of favor.

My favorite, the .376 Steyr Scout, was almost doomed from the start, It was a heavy hitting, hard kicking little beast with just one source of loaded ammunition. And one is still limited to buying Hornady brass, but there is a world of .375 bullets that, with many powder choices, can provide a killing range from rabbits to buffalo. With the even more rare Speer tungsten core truncated cone African Grand Slam bullet, there is very little that cannot be killed. To get the best out of the rifle, you have to roll your own.

The Steyr Elite .308 is based on the scout design, but beefed up from scout proportions to be a sniper kit. Heavy barrel, scope mount only. My version is accurate, but unfortunately not as accurate as the Steyr Pro Hunter .308 I sold to buy the Elite. There may be a reload out there that will bring this rifle up to my standards. If not, then I might try the Ruger.

The Ruger looks interesting. It has a flash suppressor that is detachable, so one can add other accessories (read silencer). The magazine may be similar to the M-14 standard (Ruger says Mini-14 design), so it might be possible to use or adapt higher capacity magazines for more than ten rounds.

The stock is a laminate, while it is relatively unaffected by weather changes, it is heavier than a composite stock. I see the possibility for an aftermarket stock to reduce another pound, making it more like what the Colonel wanted.

The modified Ching sling is not what came with the Steyer scouts and I'm not impressed with the long dangly strap as shown on the videos at Ruger's web site. It is no slower to have a military style strap that you wrap your support arm around for free-standing braced position. I noted that almost all the shooters in the Ruger videos ignored the strap.

Without a real look at the rifle, it will be difficult to tell how closely it matches Cooper's vision. It's difficult to imagine an action smoother than the Steyrs'. And Cooper did not like wings on the front sight or aperture sight. In fact, the Ruger version reminds me a little of the popular but not terribly accurate jungle carbine version of the Lee-Enfield .303.

As far as blast goes, The Videos do not have a night shot, but the day blasts in the videos seem little different than those I've seen from M-14s in days past. I should add that Cooper did approve of the ability for a scout to have a bulit-in bipod and spare magazine holder--something the Steyrs accomplished, although not without flaws.

BikerRN

Howdy,

Lots of folks seem to think that the Ruger Gunsite is, at best, a Pseudo-Scout.

Me, I beg to differ. Col. Cooper put the concept in to play if you will, actually he gave it notoriety, but it's been more of a concept than a reality for years. I call my rifle a Scout, or Gunsite Scout, because that's what the manufacturer named it. If they had named it the Ruger Camero Rifle I'd be calling it a Camero.

As to all the specifications set forth by Col. Cooper, they are but, in my opinion, a framework or guideline. No other rifle to my knowlege is so rigidly defined as to the Col.'s Scout. He "adjusted" his requirements and increased the allowed weight of a rifle so that Steyr could make HIS specifications from what I have read. Which is a bit hypocritical I think. Not to cast stones at the departed, but let's at least not hide behind nostalgia.

With today's price points, which the Steyr is but a dream for most folks myself included, I find the Gunsite Scout to be a rifle that people are willing to buy. I've seen the same Steyr Scout sit on a shelf at the local toy store for two and a half years before being sold. I don't know about you, but I'd rather turn inventory over at a faster rate than that if I ran a business.

I own one, that's right, one bolt action rifle. I'm not much of a fan of bolt actions, although for certain applications they have their place. The folks at Gunsite, in my opinion, blessed this rifle with the Gunsite name fully aware that it didn't meet ALL of the late Col.'s requirements, but it came close and was something that could get the Scout Rifle concept to the masses. So, I would say that the Gunsite Scout is indeed a Scout. As to meeting all of the Col.'s specifications, the original 1911 didn't have a Beavertail Grip Safety and Ambidextrious Thumb Safety, but it's still a 1911 with those changes, is it not?

As to the protective wings, calibers, and other assorted differences, me does think the Scout "concept" is too rigidly defined by a gentleman too set in his ways and unwilling to bend. Sometimes rigidity is good, but sometimes it may not be so good as there are two sides to every issue. My personal opinion is that the definition is taken too literally by devotees of the late Col; bound in nostalgia, but not practical reality.

As to which one bolt action I own, easy answer, Ruger Gunsite Scout.

Biker

Handgun Tactics, Training and Competitive Shooting - PerfectUnion Firearms Forum

off road

I could care less whether this rifle fits exactly Cooper's or anyone else's outdated and theoretical definitions based on experience from some war fought two generations ago. This is just a handly little carbine plain and simple, with a few other features that make it even more attractive!

My guess is that most folks see this as an excellent SHTF survivalist rifle. I picked up one early on. They sold out in a couple days...and no more expected in the pipeline for quiet a while. The waiting list is long, and my son is on it! One way or the other, Ruger is going to make money on this one.

Cariboo Country

I think the rifle ought to have been chambered in the 7.62 x 39 round. Just as the .308 proved to be too much for the Mini-30, this one is going to be an ear splitter. I don't know about you, but I don't hunt with ear protection. I like to hear what's going on around me.
I had a BSA Mauser sporter in .30-'06 once. It had a built-in muzzle break in the 20"-22" (can't remember off hand) barrel that worked. Scoped and loaded, you could hold it up with one hand like a pistol. BSA offered the same rifle in .458 W that weighed 8.5 lbs!
It was !LOUD! in the extreme and the blast from the muzzle break was enough to move things off the loading bench. People beside you at the range would look up to see if you were all right.
I sold it, but now wish I had gotten a 'smith to sleeve the chamber of the muzzle break. It would consistently group 165's into 1-1/4'.

We'll see how the gun writers review the new 'Scout Rifle'. Then the market will decide.

BTW - I didn't post here. The moderator moved my messaage from the bolt action page.

advaitin

You can confirm, then, BikerRN, that the magazine is a proprietary design and will not take 20-round M-14 magazines?

As best as I can tell, the reviews are saying that the magazine is single stack, made by Accuracy International for Ruger and additional magazines will cost $65 and $70.

There were aspects of the Colonel's design I really liked. Believe it or not, I'm awfully fond of the .376 Steyr Scout, enough that I have a backup stock just in case I break something (like the bipod). Peep sights (ghost ring) and forward mounted sights work for me, although I shoot other sights as well.

I mentioned the "wings" but do not have the objections the Colonel did. I prefer something to protect my sights from casual damage. I have no objection to their deal, Gunsite and Ruger, just that the old boy is probably grumbling in his grave.

If you read his Gunsite Gossip ramblings, you'll know how often he preached "the rules", but I fondly remember that someone witnessed Cooper raise up a weapon to dry fire, pointed at a natural gas meter, without having checked to see if the weapon was loaded. Consequently, Cooper destroyed the gas meter, embarrassing himself. What surprises me more is that the witness lived to tell the tale.

Indeed he was irascible, set in his ways and did not bend. I like to think of him as a counterbalance to all the wishy-washy, let's just get along types in the world.

advaitin

Perhaps Ruger will also chamber it in their proprietary .375 round. Now that would be a BLAST!

off road

The idea is that your opponent is armed with a 7.62X39, and you hold him off at ~600 yards with your .308, where you are out of his effective range and having a slow bolt gun isn't a liability! To be armed with the same round as your enemy makes absolutely no sense....when you need to outgun/outrange him.

This isn't the ideal CQB rifle, and neither is it a precission long range rifle...but rather falls somewhere in between.

off road

You can have a 20" Alaskan right now! Ruger® M77® Hawkeye® Alaskan Bolt-Action Rifle Models

This seems to be the "Gunsite" Scout Rifle, and not necessarily the "Cooper" Scout Rifle....

advaitin

I saw that rifle. Very nice and well designed. I was thinking of the previous complaints about firing the .308 from a shorter barrel. .375 from 16" barrel would be that, plus some.

BikerRN

You are indeed correct sir in that the magazines are AI.

They, while prohibatively exspensive, work very well. I also have some less exspensive C Products magazines that work, but have a few "issues" that need to be dealt with. Namely the bottom plate of the magazine slides off as one is firing. I'm devising a rubber innertube solution that will also help one to grip the magazine. It will be a chewing gum and baling wire solution that anyone can do with just a little time and minimal effort. I just need to find the time to do it.

Also, rumor has it that Ruger is designing a polymer magazine that will be less exspensive. The reason they, Ruger, went with AI magazines, from what I've learned, is reliability. There is too much discrepancy in the tolerances of double-stack magazines.

Your assessment of Col. Cooper is spot-on from all I've learned of the gentleman. In some ways he reminds me of my Daddy, also a WWII Vet.

Biker

advaitin

Thanks, Biker, my father also. Crusty individual, liked being called Sarge.

I just now read the review in the Bolt Action section. Most of my questions would have been answered if I had gone there first. All my Googling, however led me to seeing that Ruger makes a .416 in the Hawkeye platform. Ohhh! Now I have a goal.

Cariboo Country

For engaging targets at 600 yds, there are better rifles available than a 16.5" carbine. For CQB, the realm of a semi-auto, firing such a rifle in confined space would be interesting ....

My 788s have a magazine that projects just far enough the stock line to be a PITA. A 10 rd magazine would present an even greater impediment to carry. Not having handled one, this is just MHO.

I think Cooper would have described this rifle as " ... an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem ..." Not quite enough gun to do do the job for LR and too much gun up close.

Remington marketed their 600 carbines (18-1/2" barrels) in both standard and proprietary cartridges. They were a delight to carry, but buggers to shoot! A pal was at the range recently with one in a sub-.30 calibre(.243?) and he was flinching badly. In the shade of the shooting shed, the fire ball was impressive.
I frequently see them go begging at gun shows, especially the .350 and 6.5 Rem Mag.

Re: Cooper shooting a gas meter .... as an ex-natural gas tech, I can assure you that the delivery pressure inside a gas meter is in inches water column (you can stop the flow with your hand) after it goes through the regulator. Now, had he destroyed the regulator, he would have unleashed gas at 60 psi. That's an attention getter ... ;>)