Ruger Forum

Metal Trigger Guard VS. Poly Trigger Guard

This is a discussion on Metal Trigger Guard VS. Poly Trigger Guard within the Ruger 10/22 Rimfire forums, part of the Rifle & Shotgun Forum category; I know there has been a lot of talk and threads on the new poly trigger housings on the 10-22's. If you like the metal ...


Go Back   Ruger Forum > Rifle & Shotgun Forum > Ruger 10/22 Rimfire

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes

Old June 9th, 2010, 08:01 PM   #1
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 318
dksac2 is an unknown quantity at this point
Metal Trigger Guard VS. Poly Trigger Guard

I know there has been a lot of talk and threads on the new poly trigger housings on the 10-22's.
If you like the metal housing, I'll give you a reason to like it more.
If you like the Poly housing, this may or may not change your mind.
If you don't care, this post may or may not matter to you.
I just bought a new 10-22 to do some accuracy experiments on. It has the Poly housing.
Myself, I really liked the metal housing and was very disappointed (Peed off) when Ruger changed it.
I would have bought a used rifle, but it was important to me to have a new rifle for my experiments.
I ordered a new metal trigger housing from Power Custom for $25.00. (you can get the metal housing, metal trigger and mag release for $35.00.)

I measured the inside of the new poly trigger housing. It varied as much as .004" in width inside the housing.
The new metal housing I got was painted inside and out. I took a medium stone and smoothed the inside of the housing. I just smoothed the paint and did not get to bare metal. It ended up as smooth as a baby's butt.
The metal housing only varied 1/2 of one thousanth of an inch (.0005") on the inside of the housing. Pretty darn good.

Here is the problem. If you want the best possible trigger job without spending the money for a Jard or other custom trigger group, the metal trigger housing is going to give you the best and longest lasting trigger.

I measured the inside of the poly housing where the striker pin was and it measured .5075" wide. I then measured the inside of the housing where the sear/trigger hole was and it measured .5105" wide. That is a difference of .003".

When doing a trigger job, you want the ledge/notch of the striker to match up in the same place with the edge of the sear every time.
With .003" difference, the two surfaces can mate in different places every time the gun is cocked. It can also cam at angles.
Both are not condusive to a top quality trigger pull and can increase wear of the two surfaces.
It will let the trigger pull change a very small amount each time you pull the trigger.
True, you could put shims in to make up the difference, but which side do you put them on.
The poly housing is slightly squeezed when put in the top of the receiver and it can change a little every time it's taken out or put back in.

You may think that I'm being a little anal, but as a retired gunsmith, who always had a micrometer within arms reach and checked everything, it's really not.
It's the attention to the small details that make the most accurite, longest lasting weapons with the most repeatable trigger.

I have used shims on the inside of the metal housing, but I knew that the inside dimentions were not going to change.
A cast housing that is machined will always be more consistant than an injected poly piece, especially one as large as the 10-22 trigger group.

Bottom line. if you want the best trigger that will keep a good trigger for the longest time before it needs touching up, the metal housing is hands down the way to go.

If you are going to change out the poly housing, you will need the old style striker and the two bushings that fit in the sides of the striker. You will have to find a old style striker.
The striker in the poly housing does not have the bushings (it's wider) and looks like a really rough cast piece. The metal is cast, not machined like the striker in the old model so I would think it not hold as good of a trigger job and not wear as long as the old striker.
The old one; really good quality machined metal.(I'm 90 % sure it was a cast piece that was in the poly housing, it hit the garbage can as soon as it came out of the housing).

Please don't make this a which is better post, we have had enough of them.
I posted this for info purposes for those who want the best possible trigger in a stock trigger housing.
I'm a retired gunsmith and have done a lot of 10-22 triggers, so I do know what I am talking about.
I now sometimes help out Scott at S&S Sporting. If you want a really good trigger in your 10-22, contact Scott @ 208-313-1570.
He can change out the poly trigger group far cheaper than buying a Jard,
You will need to send the poly group as some of the parts will be needed from it. He can just do a trigger job on the poly housing if your money is tight.
The only improvement Ruger could sight with the Poly group was that the trigger guard would not break as easy if the rifle was dropped. I think we all know the real reason. They saved about 75 cents per rifle.

Best Regards, John K



dksac2 is offline  
Advertisements
Old June 9th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #2
TMD
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West Texas
Posts: 2,355
TMD is on a distinguished road
Quote:
The new metal housing I got was painted inside and out. I took a medium stone and smoothed the inside of the housing. I just smoothed the paint and did not get to bare metal. It ended up as smooth as a baby's butt.
The metal housing only varied 1/2 of one thousanth of an inch (.0005") on the inside of the housing.
What would this housing have measured if you has not smoothed it out?
I'm not claiming that one is better then the other. I have a 10/22 with the metal trigger housing and a Charger with the plastic housing. I have smoothed and polished both triggers myself and frankly can't tell the difference. I guess one of these days I may swap out trigger groups and see if I can tell a difference then.
TMD is offline  
Old June 9th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #3
 
Ruger mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,072
Ruger mark is on a distinguished road
Ruger 10/22 : America’s Favorite .22 Rifle
Ruger mark is offline  
Old June 9th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #4
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 327
dirty magazine is on a distinguished road
Thanks for the post! What would the difference be in practical accuracy? For the casual shooter, with a normal trigger pull (not too light) and iron sights?

I have a 10/22 with the poly trigger guard and was thinking about swapping it out, but if the poly trigger is more accurate than I am, then I probably won't notice the difference.

Again, thanks for an informative post.
dirty magazine is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 03:16 AM   #5
 
bigweatherby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: South-west Michigan
Posts: 1,877
bigweatherby is on a distinguished road
Thanks for the post. Whether or not the poly will shoot as good as the metal or not, it shows the trend to using cheaper parts. This is not a good direction to head.
bigweatherby is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 03:35 AM   #6
wrv
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92
wrv is on a distinguished road
the only real gripe i have with the plastic is that every one of them i have ever felt has had a slight wiggle to the housing, like it does not fit just right. i tried to track it down on mine, the pins, the stock, etc etc, and i finally got it to go away: i bought an OEM aluminum housing. now it doesn't even budge.
wrv is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 03:36 AM   #7
wrv
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 92
wrv is on a distinguished road
by the way, that is with the same gun, same receiver, same pins, same bolt, and same stock.
wrv is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 06:29 AM   #8
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kennewick, WA
Posts: 609
hutchman is on a distinguished road
First let me state that I am not a retired gunsmith. I am at best a casual shoot, but have been shooting for 35 years.

Second, I want to thank Ruger for continuing to produce affordable, quality firearms. The 10/22 is an icon in the firearms industry and very representative of affordable quality that they produce.

I have owned several 10/22s over my life and they all have shot the same.....which is pretty good. I currently own a metal trigger housing 10/22 with all the bells and whistles, a stock 10/22 DSP, and a Charger.

I can tell no difference in accuracy between the rifles....the stock, synthetic trigger housing DSP shoots every bit as good as the high zoot 10/22 with the metal housing. There is no discernible difference.

Now the OP has made some statements concerning what he believes are facts about these trigger housings. He states that, after measuring each housing, the variances in the synthetic housings will cause a trigger job to degrade faster. But they are only his opinions, which I respect. Everyone has opinions and the right to state those opinions. But let's not get opinions mixed up with facts.

I will be a believer that the new trigger housings are inferior when someone shoots a million rounds through both types and documents that the synthetic housing degrades accuracy more than the metal housing. I want to see some proof.

Until then I intend to shoot and enjoy my Rugers ..........
hutchman is online now  
Old June 10th, 2010, 07:30 AM   #9
 
Doc45's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Southeast Michigan
Posts: 4,661
Doc45 is on a distinguished road

Awards Showcase

dksac2, you bring up some very good points. I also am not a gunsmith but have worked with metal in a prototype shop for 25+ years. I do not doubt that the metal housing will bring out the best in the 10/22 but how many of us can actually shoot that well to notice the differance?

Your post this one of those that I will make a copy of and keep filed away just in case I get involved with another 10/22 build.

I think the reason Ruger went with the plastic trigger piece is strength. On one of those Wed. afternoon gun shows, I can't remember which one, the host was at Ruger's and they were showing both trigger guards being subjected to a drop test. The plastic one passed, the metal one broke. I really don't mind the palstic trigger guard on mine but I just using it for plinking anyway.

Thanks again for your time and the write up.
Doc45 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 07:53 AM   #10
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 572
Emmery is on a distinguished road
I bought a Volquartsen TG2000 trigger group to replace the plastic one in my SR-22. Although this has nothing to do with the inside measurements of the TG, the outside measurements on the VQ was .948". The plastic one measured .960" and the opening in the SR-22 housing was .976". When the VQ was inserted there was side play of the whole trigger housing that I was concerned about. Interestingly, once pinned in place, this play dissapeared for some reason. I realize that this has nothing to do with the trigger parts aligning or repeating with each other, but why would VQ make their outside dimensions 12 thou smaller than an already .015 smaller part? I can almost toss this TG into the housing from across the table.
Emmery is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 08:25 AM   #11
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 318
dksac2 is an unknown quantity at this point
These were just observations that I made.

I measure everything and usually put the measurements in my gun notes for that type of firearm. Comes in handy later.

I don't know how big if any of a difference it will make, but have has a couple of 10-22's come into the shop where the sear and striker were at such an angle to each other, the gun would not fire, it was hanging up on the sear/striker.
Shims fixed the problem.
Having the sear/striker 100% or as close as possible should make a difference in the accuracy of the trigger let off and make for a trigger job that should last longer.

I have no proof of this, but am anal and feel that it could help, even if just a little bit. Closer tollerences are always better in guns and any other machinery. The trigger/striker are stoned to be parrelel. If put in an assembly that is off by.003, the quality of the stoning of the trigger/sear is comprimised.

As for the guy who questioned the stoning of the paint inside of the trigger assembly, it was painted with a kind of wrinkle paint which was not smooth.
What you are asking is if I evened out the inside of the housing. I was using a 1/4" stone. I only worked on it for 3 minutes max. Did I even out the entire inside as to tollerence variations, no, just smoothed paint. When done, the inside was very smooth and parts will move easier on a smooth surface. .0001" is a very tight tollerance and that is what the difference in the trigger assemnbly was. Really can't get any better than that on a production part. Stoning a poly part makes for a rough mess and there is still the possibility for a little flex.

Best Regards, John K

Last edited by dksac2; June 11th, 2010 at 10:03 AM.
dksac2 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 02:21 PM   #12
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 318
dksac2 is an unknown quantity at this point
Thanks for the replies. As for the expensive trigger assembly, the pins held it in which is most likely why the outside measurment didn't make a difference once the pins were in, because that's what holds it in.
The metal parts are available from Clark Custom Guns, Inc. Home Page
Can I say the metal trigger guard with it's tighter tollerances has made my 10-22 any more accurite or the trigger better, no I can't.
I can say that anything mechanical will almost always improve when made with parts that have tighter tollerences.
Look at re worked parts that go into the stock trigger guards. The triggers are much better.
Will the holes in the poly housing open up faster than the metal housing, I don't know that either. I don't know how Ruger's poly compares to glocks poly material. Glocks has held up well.
An example would be the first Honda Civics that Honda came out with.
The rod bearings were fitted to the ten thousnsths, not one thousanth like the Chevy was. That motor went 550 thousand miles before dropping an valve. It never spun a bearing or gauled one.
Bottom line is that I like the metal trigger group, trigger and mag release better.
Plastic is for toys. That said, if you buy a poly weapon, You know that you are getting a poly gun. I carry a Glock. It's ugly, but works 100% which is why I carry it. Ruger did not give me a choice. I can carry a 100% metal pistol if I want one.
I was upset when Ruger took a rifle made 100% from metal and put plastic parts in it. That did not sit well with me, I was not given a choice, but that's just my opinion.
I think the metal trigger guard breaking excuse for changing to plastic is a bunch or BS. Thousands of rifles have metal trigger guards.
I think they saved $1.50 a gun, that why they went to poly.
I think that my trigger is better with the metal housing and will last longer. I could be wrong, but I think it's true and that's all that matters to me.
Change it to the metal parts or leave it. It's what you want to do and what makes you feel better. I would think no less of you or give you a bad time about it.
Consider what I found, draw your own conclusions and then do as you wish.

Best Regards, John K

Last edited by dksac2; June 10th, 2010 at 02:26 PM.
dksac2 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 03:23 PM   #13
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 318
dksac2 is an unknown quantity at this point
More 10-22 Measurements

I measured the hammer from the poly housing, it was 500" thick and does not have bushings like the old model. It is a machined piece and had the worst trigger pull of any quality rifle that I have every handled.
The re worked old style hammer makes shooting good groups a snap. I got a best of just under 1" at 50 yards with cheap Rem yellow box ammo. This is a carbine with the barrel band on.
Stock except for the re worked trigger group. No other changes. I would have not been able to shoot that good of a group with the stock trigger. It was too hard to pull and hold the rifle steady. It was Federal Classic ammo, not match ammo.
The old style hammer with the bushings was .501.5" Wide
We have .0015 less side play than The new style hammer which measures.500"" wide.
Now the housings.
The Poly housing is .520.5" wide.
The metal housing is .518" wide.
This adds up to an additional side play of .003.5 in the Poly housing.
This does effect the mating of the sear and striker, so the side to side measurements favor the metal housing.
These are all new parts.
Will it make a difference in the consistancy of the trigger pull, I think so, but then again, how much, I really can't say, but I do know on any gun, the closer the tollerences, the better the trigger pull and less wear due to the parts hitting in the same place every time.
What can I prove, nothing, but therory backs me up.
One thing I did do was to put a .004" shim on each side of the hammer when I re asembled the trigger group. It did make a difference that I could feel as there was less side to side play when pulling the trigger, .008" less.. It did help, maybe that adds to the theory that I am right.

Best Regards, John K

Last edited by dksac2; June 11th, 2010 at 10:08 AM.
dksac2 is offline  
Old June 10th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #14
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 897
DPris is on a distinguished road
Ruger went to poly because aluminum was more abrasive in the gang moulds than polymer & was wearing out individual cavities at different rates.
Moulds are expensive, you don't throw one out if one cavity goes bad, you keep on running with that mould, but at reduced casting capacity & efficiency, since you've got a dead space in one or more cavities.

The variance in tolerances that was resulting from uneven mould wear was creating a higher rejection rate than it should have, making it hard to keep parts within tolerance ranges, and was almost making the alloy assemblies something of a hand-fitted prospect.

With polymer, the moulds last longer, wear more evenly, and stick to more uniform tolerances resulting in a lower parts rejection rate and a more efficient assembly process.

It improved efficiency as the primary goal, and it did save the company some money in reducing the rejection rate, improving the mould life & full capacity pour rates, and in requiring less assembly time in installing smaller parts in the more consistent polymer main assembly.

Denis
DPris is offline  
Old June 11th, 2010, 04:27 AM   #15
 
Ruger mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,072
Ruger mark is on a distinguished road
All this for a gun that can be had for $200.00??
Ruger mark is offline  
Reply

  Ruger Forum > Rifle & Shotgun Forum > Ruger 10/22 Rimfire



Search tags for this page

10 22 metal trigger housing

,

10/22 metal trigger housing

,
10/22 plastic trigger housing
,

10/22 trigger guard

,

10/22 trigger housing

,

ruger 10 22 trigger guard

,
ruger 10-22 stainless trigger drop in
,
ruger 10/22 aluminum triger housing vs plastic
,
ruger 10/22 metal trigger
,

ruger 10/22 metal trigger assembly

,
ruger 10/22 metal trigger group
,

ruger 10/22 metal trigger guard

Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Ruger Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
M77 Trigger Guard thedoveshooter Ruger Bolt Action 7 September 14th, 2013 07:09 PM
SR9 trigger guard rubbing in holster ? Gpa09 Gunsmithing 5 February 4th, 2012 06:32 PM
SBH Trigger Guard Tater Ruger Single Action 10 October 7th, 2010 06:27 AM
Metal trigger guard, trigger and mag release dksac2 Ruger 10/22 Rimfire 14 July 21st, 2010 03:02 PM
Looking for a trigger guard!! thecopyrights Ruger 10/22 Rimfire 2 March 31st, 2009 07:29 AM

Top Gun Sites Top Sites List  
Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2006 - 2014 Ruger Forum. All rights reserved.
Ruger Forum is a Ruger Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent Sturm Ruger & Company Inc. of Southport, CT.