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Trail Boss?

This is a discussion on Trail Boss? within the Reloading forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by onehandgunner rclark, when I start reloading with T/B in my SBH44 (6 gr, 240 lswc) which way, up or down, will my ...


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Old December 18th, 2011, 11:34 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehandgunner View Post
rclark, when I start reloading with T/B in my SBH44 (6 gr, 240 lswc) which way, up or down, will my point of impact change from point of impact from factory 240 JHP, 30 yards gun to target, I think I am asking this correctly. Also, you used some Starline brass, is it better than Remington?
onehandgunner,

To varify my previous post (#174), I just shoot some reloads with the 45-270-SAA boolit in the 45 Colt today using 21.5 grains of SR-4759 @ 1147 fps and with 7.0 grains of Trail Boss @ 782 fps...

The Blackhawk is dead on at 25 yards with the SR-4759 load and it is at least 6" low at that same distance with the Trail Boss load...

That is the only problem I have with using Trail Boss. One must know where impacts will be when using it. Actually there is almost too much variable to shoot it with any accuracy as far as hitting targets when the handgun is sighted in with higher velocity loads...

Good-luck...BCB



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Old December 18th, 2011, 12:02 PM   #182
 
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Thanks BCB, I will pick a T/B load that I like and set sights for that load and then choose a mid range load and see what the difference is. If it more than 2" I may adjust the elevation to the middle. I don't need heavy loads, if it takes that much killin' I just run it down with the truck. thanks Jerry
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Old December 19th, 2011, 04:27 PM   #183
 
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Okay, a couple more tests in.

I am discontinuing the .357 125g tests with TB as I don't want to go lower and results are horrible at the upper end. I even 'hand' measured the TB for both of the following tests. Anyway here they are are.

.357 BH 6 1/2" 34F, cloudy

5.0g Trail Boss, 158g SWC, CCI-500 primer 802fps Avg, 24 SD, 73 ES (15 shots)
5.0g Trail Boss, 158g SWC, CCI-550 primer 775fps Avg, 12 SD, 39 ES (15 shots)

5.5g Trail Boss, 125g TC, CCI-500 primer 880fps Avg, 44 SD, 187 ES (15 shots)
5.5g Trail Boss, 125g TC, CCI-550 primer 848fps Avg, 30 SD, 100 ES (15 shots)

Note the lower velocities for Magnum primers. The 158g load is actually pretty good with the magnum primer though. I think I am all done with .357 TB testing and move on to other powders for this cartridge. I tried W-231 and HS-6 today with the 158g bullet with decent results. W-231 was better.

Just ordered a 1000 250g RNFP bullets so may be able to get back to some .45 Colt TB testing over the holidays...

Last edited by rclark; December 19th, 2011 at 08:36 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2011, 01:46 PM   #184
 
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Okay, results are in for the 250g RNFP and Trail Boss.. Again set was loaded back to back and shot back to back, so only thing different was the primer. Temp was 30F and cloudy. 8.5g load was not loaded or shot back to back.

All shot with same 5 1/2" barreled Ruger BH .45 Colt.
Rimrock 250g RNFP used throughout.
Winchester cases for 5.5 to 6.5 (not new).
Starline cases for 7.0 to 8.5 (not new).
Light crimp into the crimp groove.

5.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 702fps Avg, 15 SD, 42 ES (21 shots)
5.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 746fps Avg, 10 SD, 38 ES (17 shots)
6.0g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 737fps Avg, 12 SD, 39 ES (14 shots)
6.0g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 778fps Avg, 11 SD, 36 ES (15 shots)
6.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 775fps Avg, 11 SD, 31 ES (15 shots)
6.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 819fps Avg, 11 SD, 42 ES (14 shots)
7.0g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 813fps Avg, 10 SD, 35 ES (16 shots)
7.0g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 829fps Avg, 12 SD, 40 ES (18 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 845fps Avg, 17 SD, 60 ES (15 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 848fps Avg, 17 SD, 59 ES (13 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 873fps Avg, 19 SD, 63 ES (15 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 842fps Avg, 13 SD, 43 ES (14 shots)
8.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 912fps Avg, 11 SD, 32 ES (19 shots)
8.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-350 primer 865fps Avg, 17 SD, 58 ES (19 shots)

This concludes the 'comprehensive' tests in .45 Colt as these are the bullets (250 RNFP and 255g SWC) I normally shoot. Not that other loads later will 'trickle' in for other calibers....

Last edited by rclark; December 24th, 2011 at 03:25 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2011, 04:00 PM   #185
 
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Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMD View Post
Trail Boss is to be used exclusively with lead bullets. It is NOT intended for use with jacketed bullets.
I recommended TB for a friend of mine to learn reloading with. All we had at the time were jacketed bullets and I could find no loading data, so I emailed TB's manufacturer. Their reply was "Trail Boss does not like jacketed bullets." No further information.

I emailed back, asking how TB expresses this dislike. I emailed back a second time.

No answer either time.

We estimated some loads for the jacketed bullets from existing lead data and carefully sent some downrange. They worked for the intended purpose.

The only reason I can think of not to use TB with jacketed bullets is the possibility of sticking a bullet in the barrel with a too-slow load, or allowing a jacket to strip off and get stuck in the barrel somehow.

I am extremely disappointed in TB's manufacturer for ignoring a legitimate question from a customer, but do like the powder for its bulk and burning consistency.

I have no idea why not compressed loads, but have no reason to desire such, either, so have no inclination to ask.

IMR does now suggest that TB is useful for reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Maybe my question got to them, but I am still disappointed over their silence to my email.

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Old December 24th, 2011, 04:08 PM   #186
 
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Did i read that right? the 300 primer start moving up on the inside, catches the 350 near 7.5 gns and then passes it, increasing it's lead as the loads get heavier?
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Old December 24th, 2011, 04:44 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post
I recommended TB for a friend of mine to learn reloading with. All we had at the time were jacketed bullets and I could find no loading data, so I emailed TB's manufacturer. Their reply was "Trail Boss does not like jacketed bullets." No further information.

I emailed back, asking how TB expresses this dislike. I emailed back a second time.

No answer either time.

We estimated some loads for the jacketed bullets from existing lead data and carefully sent some downrange. They worked for the intended purpose.

The only reason I can think of not to use TB with jacketed bullets is the possibility of sticking a bullet in the barrel with a too-slow load, or allowing a jacket to strip off and get stuck in the barrel somehow.

I am extremely disappointed in TB's manufacturer for ignoring a legitimate question from a customer, but do like the powder for its bulk and burning consistency.

I have no idea why not compressed loads, but have no reason to desire such, either, so have no inclination to ask.

IMR does now suggest that TB is useful for reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

Maybe my question got to them, but I am still disappointed over their silence to my email.

Lost Sheep
When TB was first introduced IMR said not to use it with jacked bullets becuae of potential pressure spikes. I wasn't going to argue with them and darn sure wasn't going to experiment with my guns to see if its true or not. There's plenty of other powders on the market that work just fine for my uses.
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Old December 24th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #188
 
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Quote:
it, increasing it's lead as the loads get heavier?
yep... You read that right. I talked this over with a follow shooter and we 'think' the bullet must start moving out of the case early before the pressure properly builds hence the lower velocities with the magnum primer.... Only thing we could 'figure' is happening. Otherwise it is a mystery.

Quote:
I have no idea why not compressed loads, but have no reason to desire such, either, so have no inclination to ask
If you look at the data for .44Mag in the new Hornady manual, you will find a true compressed load.

See here : Compressed load

I think they were being a bit conservative being a new powder.... But to me if you have to compress it to get where you want to be, you are using the wrong powder. The 8.5g load under the 255g SWC, I show in an above post is a slightly compressed load. Note that it isn't a very good load either. Didn't want to experiment higher than that... yet....

Last edited by rclark; December 24th, 2011 at 07:41 PM.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #189
 
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First .44Mag numbers roll in.

.44Mag 50th Ruger Flattop 6 1/2" 32F

7.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer 908fps Avg, 10 SD, 30 ES (9 shots)

Going to have to work up a few loads here for fun, I think!
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Old January 28th, 2012, 11:34 AM   #190
 
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.44Mag 50th Ruger Flattop 6 1/2" 29F

7.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer 838fps Avg, 12 SD, 35 ES (14 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer 919fps Avg, 12 SD, 33 ES (14 shots) Accurate

Last edited by rclark; January 28th, 2012 at 12:22 PM.
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Old January 29th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #191
 
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TrailBoss with jacketed bullets

I've been using TrailBoss handloads based on recipes from IMR in several rifles and with both jacketed and naked lead bullets. I've experienced no problems with either. For example, in a 30-06 rifle I use a Sierra 150 gr. pro hunter SPT bullet pushed by 15.5 gr. of TrailBoss in R-P cases and 9-1/2 primers. They are extremely consistent and will tightly group, but as you might expect, they are pretty slow---about 1300 fps. 24" rifle barrel barely gets warm, and fouling is minimal until about 50 shots. ---DD
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Old January 29th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #192
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DoubtingDuck, have you ever made a comparable load using Unique? If so, how does barrel warming and accuracy compare?
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Old January 31st, 2012, 04:00 PM   #193
 
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Ok, finished the standard primer test with the .44Mag. Here are the results. BTW, the 9.5g load is close to the top of case (can you say we have compression). As far as I am going to take it. All brass looks normal. Primer looks good. Ejected normally. Note that these loads are from the Hornady manual so I wasn't going out on a limb here ... even though it violates the premise to never compress TB. Recoil was light as expected.

.44Mag 50th Ruger Flattop 6 1/2"

7.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _838fps Avg, 12 SD, 35 ES (14 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _908fps Avg, 10 SD, 30 ES (9 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _919fps Avg, 12 SD, 33 ES (14 shots) Accurate
8.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _958fps Avg, 18 SD, 58 ES (15 shots)
9.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _999fps Avg, 10 SD, 38 ES (14 shots)
9.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer 1005fps Avg, 15 SD, 51 ES (14 shots)
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Old January 31st, 2012, 04:00 PM   #194
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MZ5 View Post
DoubtingDuck, have you ever made a comparable load using Unique? If so, how does barrel warming and accuracy compare?
I haven't used Unique in anything other than pistol loads---nothing one would consider a "reduced" load. I have used IMR SR 4759 as a reduced-load rifle powder and it works well, but creates much more energy/heat/velocity for a given volume. I know others who are Blue-Dot fans, too. I haven't ventured out to experiment much on my own. The Hodgdon/IRM/Winchester cartridge load website has recipes for using TrailBoss and I stick to those guidelines, and I've learned that with TB one can really slow things down.

As for barrel warming, it always changes POI in my experience. If a barrel is not floated, change is more rapid. Thus, reduced loads have the potential to produce more consistent groups. A local shooter uses TB loads in competition in M1 Garand matches and does well. When I shoot reduced loads, however, I intend to just have fun, to "lob them in" and not get my shorts bunched up if all shots don't touch.
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Old February 1st, 2012, 12:52 PM   #195
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rclark View Post
Ok, finished the standard primer test with the .44Mag. Here are the results. BTW, the 9.5g load is close to the top of case (can you say we have compression). As far as I am going to take it. All brass looks normal. Primer looks good. Ejected normally. Note that these loads are from the Hornady manual so I wasn't going out on a limb here ... even though it violates the premise to never compress TB. Recoil was light as expected.

.44Mag 50th Ruger Flattop 6 1/2"

7.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _838fps Avg, 12 SD, 35 ES (14 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _908fps Avg, 10 SD, 30 ES (9 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _919fps Avg, 12 SD, 33 ES (14 shots) Accurate
8.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _958fps Avg, 18 SD, 58 ES (15 shots)
9.0g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer _999fps Avg, 10 SD, 38 ES (14 shots)
9.5g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer 1005fps Avg, 15 SD, 51 ES (14 shots)
7.5 to 8.0 looks good there. I think I loaded up 8.0 grains myself last month, but never tried them out. They're probably sitting in an ammo box somewhere, need to go find them and head out for my own testing. Those probably make a good plinking and double-action shooting load for a Smith Model 29 or 629.
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