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Trail Boss?

This is a discussion on Trail Boss? within the Reloading forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; I am very curious, based on Rclark's results, to try magnum primers with TB to see if I too get reductions in ES and SD ...


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Old December 7th, 2011, 08:27 AM   #166
 
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Quote:
I am very curious, based on Rclark's results, to try magnum primers with TB to see if I too get reductions in ES and SD numbers.
Hope you do, be nice to be 'validated'. This is reason I decided the best way to test myself is load a batch at the same time with only the primer different (and of course the cases (same brand) which I can't do anything about!). That way all environment variables are the same too (temp, light, wind) for the test. Have 6.0g, 6.5g, and the retest of 8.5g ready to go (100 loads).... Can't wait.... This isn't work ... it's fun!! Just ordered a 1000 more SWCs from Rimrock (stay with same bullet), so 'should' have enough to finish the 'initial' tests (just ran out of the 255g SWCs last night).

Oh, cleaned the test gun last night as the cylinder was not rolling as easy. Only mention this because I only saw very little (had to really look to see it) leading through the above tests.... One swipe of Hoppes #9 down the barrel and a couple of clean patches and barrel was clear .

Richard




Last edited by rclark; December 7th, 2011 at 08:37 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 12:57 PM   #167
 
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The results are in from lunch shoot. 25F, no wind, cloudy.

Loads were loaded at the same time. Also checked each load with scale this time for kicks... Only difference is primer....

5 1/2" BH

6.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 721fps Avg, 21 SD, 70 ES (15 shots)
6.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 750fps Avg, 11 SD, 44 ES (15 shots)
6.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 752fps Avg, 20 SD, 78 ES (15 shots)
6.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 797fps Avg, 12 SD, 44 ES (15 shots)

8.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 879fps Avg, 22 SD, 85 ES (15 shots)
8.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 869fps Avg, 24 SD, 65 ES (15 shots)

The 8.5 load is a bit confusing. But I re-shot it because it was confusing the last time I chrono'ed it .... But it is what it is.... Maybe someone knows what could be going on up there.

So there you have it. I have one more test to run 4.5, 5.0, and 5.5 and then picture will be complete.... for this bullet anyway!
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Old December 7th, 2011, 01:07 PM   #168
 
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Sorry guys but I just got off the boat last night. What does SD and ES mean? Which loads were causing the leading?
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Old December 7th, 2011, 01:14 PM   #169
 
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SD - Standard Deviation (Need at least 10 samples to become 'meaningful' and more samples the better)

ES - Extreme Spread (Max velocity - Min velocity over the total samples taken)

Another must read is Iowegan's article on SD in the library : Standard Deviation PDF by Iowegan

Leading? Haven't seen any significant leading with my tests.

Last edited by rclark; December 9th, 2011 at 07:50 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #170
 
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Okay, now I got it. The leading was from post 166., but I guess it was a non issue.
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Old December 7th, 2011, 02:46 PM   #171
 
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Yeah, I probably confused the issue there . I was commenting that through the range of loads (and number of loads) that I was shooting, I haven't seen any significant leading which is great! Just a simple normal cleanup (no scrubbing) with patches and ready to go again!

Lets put all my data together now up to this point so you don't have to go back through the posts :

All shot with same 5 1/2" barreled Ruger BH .45 Colt.
Rimrock 255g SWC used throughout.
Winchester cases (not new).
Light crimp into the crimp groove.

Each 300/350 pair was loaded at the same time at the bench. Each pair was shot back to back for same environmental conditions with the exception of the 7.5g load.

4.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 539fps Avg, 29 SD, 101 ES (15 shots)
4.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 612fps Avg, 13 SD, 41 ES (15 shots)
5.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 591fps Avg, 29 SD, 89 ES (15 shots)
5.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 654fps Avg, 11 SD, 37 ES (14 shots)
5.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 639fps Avg, 27 SD, 95 ES (20 shots)
5.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 716fps Avg, 12 SD, 42 ES (19 shots)
6.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 721fps Avg, 21 SD, 70 ES (15 shots)
6.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 750fps Avg, 11 SD, 44 ES (15 shots)
6.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 752fps Avg, 20 SD, 78 ES (15 shots)
6.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 797fps Avg, 12 SD, 44 ES (15 shots)
7.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 778fps Avg, 18 SD, 73 ES (15 shots)
7.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 817fps Avg, _8 SD, 27 ES (15 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 822fps Avg, 20 SD, 73 ES (21 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, ___WLP primer 823fps Avg, 13 SD, 50 ES (28 shots)
7.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 831fps Avg, _9 SD, 34 ES (30 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 840fps Avg, 18 SD, 66 ES (17 shots)
8.0g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 847fps Avg, 13 SD, 50 ES (20 shots)
8.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-300 primer 879fps Avg, 22 SD, 85 ES (15 shots)
8.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, CCI-350 primer 869fps Avg, 24 SD, 65 ES (15 shots)

.45 ACP 5 1/2" Flattop BH
4.5g Trail Boss, 200g TC, CCI-300 primer 821fps Avg, 19 SD, 74 ES (30 shots)
4.5g Trail Boss, 200g TC, CCI-350 primer 849fps Avg, 14 SD, 49 ES (19 shots) Shot this 12/09/11

Last edited by rclark; December 16th, 2011 at 01:38 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2011, 12:19 PM   #172
 
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Table is completed above . Draw your own conclusions from it. It is what it is!

The last couple of days I also tested some Starline brass loaded with 250g RNFP over 8.5g of TB, CCI 300 primers .

8.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 912fps Avg, 11 SD, 32 ES (19 shots)
8.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 902fps Avg, 12 SD, 44 ES (18 shots)

On 2/11/11 I tested same load and got the following. About the same temperature out too.

8.5g Trail Boss, 250g RNFP, CCI-300 primer 885fps Avg, 12 SD, __ ES (12 shots)

This appears to be a accurate load with the RNFP. Reason I bring this up is with the 255g SWC I get 'inconsistent' results and this with the standard primer (at least the box says it is!) .... So .... looks like I may have to do a bit more testing with the RNFP bullet.... Not sure why they should be so 'different'.... Part of the 'game' I guess!!!

Also tested .44Spec load. Note the following were not back to back, but Magnum primer wasn't a big deal here... Or so it appears....

5.2g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-300 primer 756fps Avg, 12 SD, 57 ES (30 shots) (shot 6/14/11 All Starline brass)
5.2g Trail Boss, 240g SWC, CCI-350 primer 765fps Avg, 11 SD, 54 ES (29 shots) (shot today, mixture of brass)

Last edited by rclark; December 10th, 2011 at 12:37 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 07:28 AM   #173
 
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rclark, when I start reloading with T/B in my SBH44 (6 gr, 240 lswc) which way, up or down, will my point of impact change from point of impact from factory 240 JHP, 30 yards gun to target, I think I am asking this correctly. Also, you used some Starline brass, is it better than Remington?
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Old December 14th, 2011, 07:38 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onehandgunner View Post
rclark, when I start reloading with T/B in my SBH44 (6 gr, 240 lswc) which way, up or down, will my point of impact change from point of impact from factory 240 JHP, 30 yards gun to target, I think I am asking this correctly. Also, you used some Starline brass, is it better than Remington?
I'm sayin' it's gonna shoot low...

I shoot lots of Trail Boss and that is the only trouble with it...

I have my handguns sighted in at 25 yards with the heavy loads...

One has to hold quite high with the TB as they produce much less velocity...

It gets extremely more difficult to shoot it at 50 yard targets when the handgun is shooting heavy loads dead on at 25 yards...

Good-luck...BCB
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Old December 14th, 2011, 08:48 AM   #175
 
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Quote:
which way, up or down, will my point of impact change from point of impact
I'll say up front : I really don't know. I do know that the longer the distance the lower the TB load (slower) is going to be compared to the factory load (physics (gravity) dictates that). That I do know. I know that lighter bullets impact lower than heavier. I am also under the impression (until proved different) with same size bullet that slower velocity will impact higher as the bullet takes longer to get out of the barrel at a short (how short?) distance. Is this a myth? I did an internet search as this is much debated... My answer then is just try it and see .

As for Starline vs. Remington.... I have no preference. I mostly use Starline because I can buy cheaper in bulk and it works great, so I continue to use it in all calibers that I reload (.357, .44spec, .44mag, .45 Colt, and .45ACP) ...
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Old December 14th, 2011, 09:06 AM   #176
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rclark View Post
I'll say up front : I really don't know. I do know that the longer the distance the lower the TB load (slower) is going to be compared to the factory load (physics (gravity) dictates that). That I do know. I know that lighter bullets impact lower than heavier. I am also under the impression (until proved different) with same size bullet that slower velocity will impact higher as the bullet takes longer to get out of the barrel at a short (how short?) distance. Is this a myth? I did an internet search as this is much debated... My answer then is just try it and see .

As for Starline vs. Remington.... I have no preference. I mostly use Starline because I can buy cheaper in bulk and it works great, so I continue to use it in all calibers that I reload (.357, .44spec, .44mag, .45 Colt, and .45ACP) ...
FWIW I did quite a bit of "experimenting" with loads for my Ruger flat top .44 specialI did not have the time or discipline to document the whole procedure but I have/had the ability to load 6 or 12 (or whatever number) of rounds and step right out the door of my loading room and try them out. In my case I found that a 250 gn LSWC was very "trackable" on paper with regard to velocity. The faster the bullet exited the barrel the lower the POI. BUT things got "funny" when I tried to compare a batch of odd 200 gn more "wadcutter" CAS bullets I picked up on a lark. With a bit less weight related recoil they followed the same pattern but the intersection of POI between the two bullet weights was at quite a different velocity level. Which, to me confirmed the "velocity/recoil/POI" theory.
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Old December 14th, 2011, 11:06 AM   #177
 
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Thanks for the 'bit of experimenting'. When testing one of my .44Spec flattops, I found the Skeeter load to shot to POA, while normal .44Spec loads (slower) 'seemed' to print higher... No documented 'proof' though as I just stuck with the Skeeter load! So thanks for the 'conformation'!

Ran the .45 Colt WLP test at lunch today 36F 12/16/2011 (added it to table above as well) Removed one high and one low shot:

7.5g Trail Boss, 255g SWC, ___WLP primer 823fps Avg, 13 SD, 50 ES (28 shots)

Last edited by rclark; December 16th, 2011 at 01:47 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #178
 
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Did a couple of back to back tests with the .357 today. Again back to back means I loaded all 30 rounds at one time, with just the primer being different.

Not to happy with the results (and it showed on paper targets too), but of course they are what they are!

.357 BH 6 1/2" 36F, sunny

4.2g Trail Boss, 158g SWC, CCI-500 primer 713fps Avg, 15 SD, 47 ES (15 shots)
4.2g Trail Boss, 158g SWC, CCI-550 primer 722fps Avg, 20 SD, 68 ES (14 shots)

5.0g Trail Boss, 125g TC, CCI-500 primer 865fps Avg, 39 SD, 105 ES (13 shots)
5.0g Trail Boss, 125g TC, CCI-550 primer 890fps Avg, 39 SD, 123 ES (14 shots)

I removed the obvious high (or low) is why some have only 13 or 14..... Looks like there is plenty of work here to find a 'good' combination .. if there is one!

Last edited by rclark; December 17th, 2011 at 03:01 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #179
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I am getting similar velocites with the 158 grainers...

But, I am shooting from a 6" barrel...

I did have to go to 5.0 grains to get good accuracy...

Haven't shot anything as light as the 125'ers...

You must mean 500's and 550's!!!

Gotta love this Trail Boss...

BCB
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Old December 17th, 2011, 03:04 PM   #180
 
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Thanks... Changed... So used to writing 300 .

I 'really' don't like the results for the 125g bullets. I'll have to try your 5.0g for the 158g bullet and see what happens. Have ten days off over the holidays ... so should be able to get some testing done! Boy, reloading these 'dinky' .357 cases sure seems funny after working with .45 Colt cases for the last few months!

Did you see my PM to you BCB?

Last edited by rclark; December 17th, 2011 at 03:07 PM.
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