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W296 in .357 Rifle Loads

This is a discussion on W296 in .357 Rifle Loads within the Reloading forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; I've been following the thread on 396 loads for the GP100 and it raised a question to my. My go to load for my 77/357 ...


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Old May 7th, 2017, 08:54 AM   #1
 
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W296 in .357 Rifle Loads

I've been following the thread on 396 loads for the GP100 and it raised a question to my. My go to load for my 77/357 is 140 g XTP with 10.8 g of 2400. I have a hard time in finding 2400 so I made some loads with W296 from the Hornady 9th Ed using 11.6 g of 296. While accuracy was good, it was extremely dirty, the cases and rifle. Is it possible that the light load is not expanding the case enough to seal the chamber? I generally use a light crimp. Hodgdon starting load for H110 is 17.1 g would that be a cleaner load? (Hodgdon does not list W 296, but it does list it in the handguns.)



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Old May 7th, 2017, 10:21 AM   #2
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Your load of 11.6 gr. is well below the recommended starting load per Hodgdon powder data. First off, Hodgdon will tell you that H-110 and W296 are the same powder with just a different label on the can. They will also tell you not to reduce the load below the listed starting load.
Hodgdon starting load for the 140 gr. XTP bullet in a 357 mag. rifle is 17.1gr. for a velocity of around 1836 fps. I would start there and if you want more velocity you can increase to the max load of 19 gr. Which would only give you a little over 100 fps in velocity.
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Old May 7th, 2017, 10:32 AM   #3
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mnh2obuff, A little know fact that applies to all smokeless powder is .... the higher the chamber pressure, the more complete combustion will be .... thus the cleaner it will burn. It turns out, about 15k psi is about the threshold for a good burn and enough case expansion to prevent sooty cases. According to QuickLOAD, your load with 11.6gr of W-296 and a 140gr bullet only produces a mere 9736 psi .... way too low!

The minimum load listed in the Hornady manual for W-296 and a 140gr XTP bullet is 15.8 gr, which produces about 21k psi .... way under the SAAMI max limit of 35k psi. The max load listed for W-296 with a 140gr bullet in the Hornady manual is 18.2 gr . It generates a chamber pressure of 33,983 psi .... still safely under 35k psi.

I'm surprised you didn't get a squib load with that dangerously low powder charge. This powder should never have charges below the minimum listed loads .... it just isn't safe to have a bullet stuck in the bore. My recommendation .... increase your powder charge to at least 16gr ... 18gr would be even better. You will get a much cleaner burn without sooty cases plus accuracy will be very good.
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Old May 7th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #4
 
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HBK-Thanks for the input. I was interested in finding out why or how the data from Hornady (11.1 g) could be so much different from Hodgdon with their starting loads with the max being almost the same and is 2400 much cleaner than 296/110 powder in lighter loads.
Northern CA. I'm in Sac. Nice to know there are others close,
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Old May 7th, 2017, 10:51 AM   #5
 
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Iowegan-The 11.1 g is listed .357 Rifle section. I see the 15.8 in the handgun portion of the manual. I normally just shoot .38's in my handguns, but like the idea of being able to use them in either. Maybe, I'll shoot the remainder in my single shot HR so I can see any potential squibs.
I'm planing on increasing the load to the Hodgdon starting load of 17.1 grains.
As always, your input is appreciated.
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Old May 7th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #6
 
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Yep: I looked in my Hornady #9 manual at the .357 Magnum (Rifle) loads and found the H110 11.5-18.3 gr loading and the W296 11.1-19.2 gr loading. I compared with my Speer #13 manual and found the Speer loads for use with their 140 gr jacketed .357 bullet is: H110 16.2-17.2 gr, and W296 17.0-18.0 gr.

When I work up a new load, I like to reference several published sources of the load, to compare powder charges, primer types, velocities, pressures, and test barrel lengths. If I notice a great disparity (such as the Hornady/Speer data), I look into it further.

Some loading data sources list a max load, and then tell you to reduce that by 10-15% for a starting load. With that calculation, the Hornady H110 max of 18.3 gr would have a starting load of 15.5-16.4 gr. H110/W296 powder needs a near max/max charge and a magnum-rated primer to ignite and burn properly.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 05:32 AM   #7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnh2obuff View Post
I've been following the thread on 396 loads for the GP100 and it raised a question to my. My go to load for my 77/357 is 140 g XTP with 10.8 g of 2400. I have a hard time in finding 2400 so I made some loads with W296 from the Hornady 9th Ed using 11.6 g of 296. While accuracy was good, it was extremely dirty, the cases and rifle. Is it possible that the light load is not expanding the case enough to seal the chamber? I generally use a light crimp. Hodgdon starting load for H110 is 17.1 g would that be a cleaner load? (Hodgdon does not list W 296, but it does list it in the handguns.)
That is a legitimate load according to Hornady #9. Are you using magnum primers, which you would not have needed with A2400?

Note that Reloading Unlimited has one and eight pounders of A2400 in stock. I have never been able to rely on local supplies, so I order in quantity and get what I really want.

Last edited by at liberty; May 8th, 2017 at 05:35 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 07:44 AM   #8
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I did some research and learned something new about W-296/H-110. The "DO NOT REDUCE" cautions are strictly for revolvers with a B/C gap or semi-autos, not for closed breach actions (like a most rifles or a T/C pistol). After I discovered this, it made sense because the gas venting out of the B/C gap can be enough to create a squib load with any slow burning powder. So ... I apologize for giving out bum information about squibs with light loads in rifles, however my information on low pressure "dirty burns" is still valid.

firescout,
Quote:
When I work up a new load, I like to reference several published sources of the load, to compare powder charges, primer types, velocities, pressures, and test barrel lengths. If I notice a great disparity (such as the Hornady/Speer data), I look into it further.
"Shopping for answers" in different data sources can get you in a heap of trouble and here's why. All loads published in reputable reloading manuals are pressure tested and are within SAAMI pressure standards. The test equipment used to test chamber pressure is the same for all approved SAAMI labs. Chronograph testing can be done with different barrel lengths which will definitely result in different velocities. If there is a notable difference in load data, there's always a reason. These would include .... loads are using different bullets and not all bullets have the same bearing surfaces. Bullet seating depth can be different, which can radically affect chamber pressure. Different primers can cause notably different chamber pressures. There are three "power levels" for large pistol primers .... Standard, Winchester WLP, and Magnum ... just two for small pistol primers, Standard and Magnum. Again, loads tested with different barrel lengths will yield different velocities. Last but not least ..... nothing says a max listed load has to be at the SAAMI max pressure level. Most reloading manuals reduce their max loads well under SAAMI limits just for an additional safety margin, whereas other sources may run right up to the max limit. Along the same line ... be very careful with 357 Mag, 41 Mag, and 44 Mag load data. In 1993, max pressure standards for all of these were reduced (25% for 357 Mag, 10% for 41 and 44 Mag) yet we continue to see data published using the old standard. Your first clue is when pressure is stated in CUP instead of psi. This means the old crusher method and old pressure standards were used. It's fine to do a "sanity test" between reloading sources but NEVER use data from one source with primers and bullets or bullet seating depth from another source.

My suggestion .... buy the same brand bullets as your reloading manual then load your ammo to the exact specifications noted in a current manual to include: bullet weight, exact same bullet, bullet seating depth, and of course the same powder charge type and weight. This will keep your load within SAAMI specs and will be safe in any modern firearm. BTW, factory ammo using jacketed bullets are almost always loaded to SAAMI max pressures. Factory lead bullet loads are normally loaded where chamber pressure matches bullet hardness .... which is usually way under jacketed bullet pressures.

There's a lot to learn about reloading so don't confuse yourself with data from different sources and wind up with a Kaboom.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 08:17 AM   #9
 
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Quote:
Iowegan - <snip> Factory lead bullet loads are normally loaded where chamber pressure matches bullet hardness
How is that comparison of different parameters made?
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Old May 8th, 2017, 08:22 AM   #10
 
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Iowegan-Thanks for the explanation. Now I won't worry about shooting up what I've already loaded. I am going to up the charge to see if I can get a cleaner burning round.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 08:46 AM   #11
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at liberty, I'm not sure I understand your question. Perhaps an example or two is in order. Seeing that the thread is mostly about 357 Mags .... here's some data straight out of Hornady'd 10th Ed manual, page 887:

140gr lead "cowboy" bullet (BHN 10). The perfect match for a BHN 10 bullet is a chamber pressure of 14k psi. The max listed load is 5.2 gr of Unique. I ran this load through QuickLOAD and found it generates just a tad over 13k psi .... a near perfect match for a BHN 10 bullet. The formula is Chamber pressure = BHN x 1400 .... or BHN=chamber pressure divided by 1400.

Bullet hardness is not an issue for jacketed bullets so on page 886, a 140gr XTP max load is 18.4gr of H-110. This load generates very close to the SAAMI max of 35k psi. Both were chronographed in the same gun (8" Colt Python). The max lead bullet load clocked in at 1000 fps whereas the jacketed bullet clocked at 1400 fps.

As you can see, there's nothing really the same with these two loads .... except the case and primers. Using a lead bullet (same brand) and a jacketed bullet of the same weight, chamber pressure is radically different .... which reinforces the concept of using the right data for your load. Lead bullet loads are no where near SAAMI max pressure limits. Does this make sense???

Further .... let's compare 158gr SWC lead bullet from the Speer #14 manual to 158gr lead SWC bullets from the Hornady 10th Ed manual.

Hornady manual (page 887):
The max listed load for Unique is 5.0 gr with a 158gr BHN 12 LSWC and it generates 950 fps with a chamber pressure of 15,700 psi. COL =1.590". Chamber pressure matches bullet hardness within 1 BHN.

In the Speer #14 manual (page 893) a similar 158gr BHN 16 SWC is seated to a COL of 1.575". With a max load of 6.0 gr of Unique, it produces 1034 fps from a 6" S&W Mod 19 and chamber pressure is 21k psi. Bullet hardness is within 1 BHN of perfect.

The max chamber pressure for a 357 Mag is 35k psi. As you can see, the above lead bullet loads are no where near SAAMI max.

The bullet styles are similar but not the same .... bullet hardness is considerably different, however both loads match chamber pressure with bullet hardness quite well. Bullet seating depth is different, Hornady uses Magnum primers, Speer does not. Barrels are different length. The only parameters that are the same is the case and the type of powder .... but not the charge weight. How can anyone possibly conclude a similarity for these loads?

BTW, I have used the bullets listed above and have tested their BHN with a good Saeco tester. I used QuickLOAD to predict chamber pressure and it has the exact bullets listed from both manuals. Granted, QuickLOAD is just a computer generated prediction .... not an actual pressure reading .... but I have found it tracks very well with data in reloading manuals.

Last edited by Iowegan; May 8th, 2017 at 09:44 AM.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 02:43 PM   #12
 
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As I follow this info (great info), I should be good with 4.8 g 700-X with a 158 gr SWC (Berry Copper Plated) in .357...
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Old May 8th, 2017, 06:36 PM   #13
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Also if you see a big difference on a load in two different manuals, there is also a chance one of the manuals was misprinted with the wrong weight of powder to be used. why I have about 6-7 manuals on hand.
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Old May 8th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #14
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HBK, I don't recall seeing a misprint in any reputable reloading manual. Could you provide a reference?
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Old May 8th, 2017, 10:47 PM   #15
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I recall one of the writers in one of the gun mags printed a story about finding a misprint and named the manual and the fact he contacted them about the misprint in their new manual and they corrected the mistake. This was about 8-10 years ago.
I am surprised there is not more. They must have good proof readers.
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