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Newbie gas check/lube question

This is a discussion on Newbie gas check/lube question within the Reloading forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Hi guys, So I ordered a Lyman 429244 mold for my 44 mag. Got the sizer, lube, etc. So I started looking into gas checks, ...


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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:23 AM   #1
 
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Hi guys, So I ordered a Lyman 429244 mold for my 44 mag. Got the sizer, lube, etc. So I started looking into gas checks, etc. And per my reloading manuals can't find where it says to use them. Upon more research online seems to be one of those some do, some don't debates.... ending in pissing matches over Chevy and ford and who knew Elmer Keith more.

So does anybody here use them or not?

Here's a pic of 2 manuals, maybe I'm missing a symbol or key?

I will be using wheel weights at max 1200 fps, if that, honestly, more like 1k fps. Also, if not GC's, than lube in this bullets grooves? I will be using these for plinking, maybe if I see small game while hunting, so honestly not looking for wowsers on the firing line at the range.

Than you VERY much for any tips and clarification.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:43 AM   #2
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I think you'll like the results you get from those bullets. I have that same mold and lube regardless if I use a check. However, I most always use a check with that bullet but as some will say, they will shoot just fine without one. I get a little better accuracy results when using a check, or at least I think so, and I sure don't get any leading regardless of how fast or slow I push them. For non-check bullets, I often use a Lee 430-240TL (tumble lube) that I also have excellent results from. No affiliation other than where I buy mine but here's a place that makes as good a check as you'll find for a lot less $ than the big names charge: http://www.bulletgaschecks.com/index.html

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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:45 AM   #3
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PS you only want to lube in the grooves, not the shank (where the check goes). I adjust my Lyman 45 lube sizer so the the holes line up with the lube groove and it fills them perfectly.

I'm assuming you are using a lube sizer but if pan lube, I don't think it would hurt a thing to have lube around the shank or perhaps it could be wiped off.

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Old February 5th, 2017, 10:23 AM   #4
 
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Good point on the lube, Lyman manual says not to get lube on the gas check, could interfere with the powder, but they don't mention it being between bullet and gad check.

At first I'll be using the pan lube, it comes with the Lee sizing die I got.

Thus brinGS up another question for me. Once rolled in the pan lube, I fill the grooves with other lube? I always see bullets with blue or red lube in the grooves. So 2 lubes are used on bullets?
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Old February 5th, 2017, 10:40 AM   #5
 
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Gehlsurf, In my rifle cartridges, .44-40, .45 Colt, .357, 45-70, 30-30 etc. I use a gas check and red or blue Rooster lube. Note that is a hard lube and requires a heater in order to apply. Now that is especially if I'm getting close to maximum loadings. So far I haven't found any leading in any of the rifles I've just described, and several have hit right at 2000fps.

I've been using mostly wheel weights, as well as pure lead (with tin in order to harden the rifle projectiles) mixed in, which generally amounts to Lyman #2 lead hardness. However if I'm just loading for pistol calibers, for casual plinking, I generally don't use the gas checks, but I do prefer the hard lube as it is much less messy. I've tried the powder coated bullets here recently and was neither impressed or completely dissatisfied with them, six of one, six of another.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #6
 
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if you shoot cast ammo w/out lubing at all your bbl is going to get leaded up like real quick. ALWAYS use lube or coating etc when shooting cast. different colored lube relates to the diff. brands of lube, ie: lyman lube is orange. theres probably 20 diff. colors of lube. and lots of diff. mixes too. anywhere from real soft to real hard. most of the commercial guys use a blue hard lube so that it won't come off during shipping. bullet lube is a science unto itself. what you need to do is a "medium" soft/hard lube and see what works for you or look up recipes and make ur own. fill ALL the grooves except the bottom one if you are using a gas check. filling the cannalure (crimping groove) doesn't hurt anything. generally speaking, the more lube the better for the bbl. and bullet. if the end of the bbl. shows streaks of colored soot etc after shooting use a harder lube. the only way to really screw things up is to shoot uncoated/lubed bullets.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 10:55 AM   #7
 
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Wow!! 2000 FPS?! That's awesome, think I'll stick to my lil 44 mag for now though, haha. Down the road I'd love to toy with that kind of stuff!

I mispoke on the lube, just realized that the lube used before sizing IS what fills the grooves, didn't think it would be that thick. But, again, what do I know....?

Ok, so gas checks really are on a personal and gun to gun, load to load basis unless noted in reloading-which now I'd assume is higher velocities.

None the less I'll try some with and without to see how they do. I've heard they can cause more pressure, but in my lower velocities I don't think thatll be a problem.

Any of you tried making your own? Heard of guys using plastic and such punched out. Almost like shotgun stacked loads. This may be for another topic though, haha. Don't wanna get ahead of myself.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 11:01 AM   #8
 
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Thanks sargeant, Ive been looking up making my own lube. And I'll try different types, either bought or made. I like making my own stuff, figured that out when I started making my own components for stack/card loading my 12 gauges.

It's nice to not be dependent on brands, shippers, inventory, etc. Especially those nights before a hunt and you realize your running low on components!! Make your own, and as long as A walmart is open nearby, or you have the stuff on hand .... your good to go!
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:01 PM   #9
 
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Gehlsurf, you've selected a superb bullet, Lyman's 429244 GC, and one that I use at least 50% of the time in my .44's. I cast with a straight wheel weight alloy sweetened with just a pinch of tin (less than 1%), to help mold fill out. My bullets drop at 0.432"-0.433" which makes them very useful even in my overly large Marlin 1894's bore. Here are some of my procedures with it.

Sizing: I use my Lyman Lubrisizer to seat checks and lube. For all hand gun use (4-Smiths & 5 Rugers), I size to 0.430".

GC's: I use Hornady's and crimp them on with a Lyman 450 Lubrisizer tool. It seats the check and fills the grooves at the same time, using a hollow stick of lube. I find that 50-50 (alox to beeswax) lube works just fine up to 1500 fps in my Marlin rifle, as well as my Smiths and Rugers. But a Lee sizer/gas check seater works every bit as well, and I use one for my rifle loads.

For lubing, it sounds like you are going to pan lube at least initially. I think you find that it's a messy process at best. You might try Lee's Liquid Alox using their swirl lubing as an alternate method. With that bullet, I've used the Lee method on the bare bullet (without GC) up to 1050 fps with no leading in my guns. To use the Lee method, you lube a handful of bullets in a quart butter tub with a small squirt of lube added. SMALL SQUIRT, ie. about 5-6 drops will do. It helps if you warm the lube bottle in hot water first, then just swirl the handful around for 30 seconds or so. The bullets will dry after you pour them out on a sheet of wax paper over night. You should see just a faint brown stain on your bullets, any more than that and you're using too much.

Too, a Lee push through gas check seater/sizer works extremely well. In use, you swirl lube your bullets, then size them with or without the gas checks as you desire, then re-lube them again. With the gas check on, I've pushed them to 1200+fps easily without leading and with great accuracy.

As to that bullet, it's fine with or without the gas check. In loading, I wipe the base of the bullet across a piece of towelling lightly sprayed with WD40. This removes the lube on the base, but in truth, it's probably not necessary as the Lee Liquid Alox is so thin. I do it with bullets gas checked and lubed by the Lyman sizer as well.

If you pan lube, it's just about as easy. You seat your gas checks finger tight, then stand them in the pan, pouring your lube up to the groove level. Then you push them through the sizer. I much prefer the Lee method as it's quick, clean and best of all, IT WORKS, even with the older Lyman and RCBS deep lube groove bullets.

As you get more into it, you may want to invest in a Lyman or RCBS lubrisizer which will crimp the GC on and lube at the same time and allow you to use some of the stick lubes available.

As to the lube (blue or red etc.) in commercial cast bullets...for the most part it is far too hard and requires high velocity to become effective. One trick I've employed when limited to commercial cast bullets is to swirl lube them with the Lee Liquid Alox method. This prevents leading that their harder lube is not effective against. Lyman or White Lable or RCBS makes a 50-50 alox to beeswax lube that is very effective. Don't worry about getting a little lube on the shank or base of the bullet, it won't matter. When using the 4292244 bullet without the GC, I lube the shank as well as that is how my lubrisizer is set up..it makes no difference on powder burning whatsoever.

HTH's and good luck on this interesting and fun part of reloading. Rod

Last edited by Rodfac; February 5th, 2017 at 07:15 PM.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 03:49 AM   #10
 
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Thanks, Rob! I mispoke, I will be using Alox, it's what comes with the kit. I thought that was the pan method, as in roll them around in a pan shaped holder, haha, still got some learning to do!!

I'll try some with and without GCs. I'm actually looking to use them in my SRH and Ruger 44 Mag deerstalker carbine supressed. I know your not supposed to use lead in it, hence why my curiosity in GC and lubes. But I plan to check it and see how it works with the gas piston in it. Read where many people have no problems, so maybe been a warranty/safe side on Ruger part. And if I have to cycle it manually, so be it, the other option was a bolt action, anyhow, lol. It'll just make it quieter until the next round, imho.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 03:56 AM   #11
 
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Missed the point, haha, so I was looking for subsonic loads, anyhow. In FL, being constant warm temp and sea level, I found at 1050, even up to 1100 fps (just shy of subsonic), usually stays subsonic, so these are perfect!!! My SRH is for closer shots where speed should be necessary. In fact I learned this wit my 10mm, goes right through a pig. Maybe eventually I'll try the 300 grainers. But have heard they're not ad accurate.

I'm of the breed that cares about shot placement more than speed and power.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 04:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gehlsurf View Post
Good point on the lube, Lyman manual says not to get lube on the gas check, could interfere with the powder, but they don't mention it being between bullet and gad check.

At first I'll be using the pan lube, it comes with the Lee sizing die I got.

Thus brinGS up another question for me. Once rolled in the pan lube, I fill the grooves with other lube? I always see bullets with blue or red lube in the grooves. So 2 lubes are used on bullets?
I think the lube you are speaking of is Lee Liquid Alox used for tumble lubing. You place your bullets in a plastic tub, think old cool-whip bowl, place a few drops (more is NOT better, you only want the bullets to have a very thin coat once tumbled) in with the bullets and swirl/tumble them around, dump the coated bullets out on wax paper and allow to dry overnight.....To make your life better, look up the recipe for 45-45-10 bullet lube as it works well and uses the alox you already have as one of the ingredients. You don't need any other lube in the grooves with this. If you are using a Lee Sizer die, I get better results seating the gas check by lightly tapping the check in place and pushing it through the die check end first. I wouldn't worry about the alox interfering with powder as it dries to a thin brown film.

Pan lubing is simply standing each bullet on end in a pan and pouring in melted/heated lube (hard lube, not liqid alox) into the pan just enough so the level of lube is above the lube grooves. Once the lube cools/hardens into a block, dump it out and push the bullets out of the hardened lube block and the lube grooves will be filled, looking like blue or red you mention. The easiest way to obtain these results is to use a lube sizer which sizes and lubes the bullet at the same time and the benefit is there's no wait time on the lube to dry before loading the bullet. Another benefit is that you can seat your gas checks with this at the same time.

Last edited by g17; February 6th, 2017 at 04:51 PM.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 09:44 AM   #13
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The 429244 is a gas check design, even though the manual does not state the use of gas checks. But you will notice there are slight load differences between that bullet and a 429421 which is pretty much the same bullet sans gas check. I pan lube so I size the bullet twice, once to install the gas check and once for a final sizing after lubing (I have a Lee die I honed to .432"+ for a special use and run the bullets through this for gas check installation). With a lubersizer this wouldn't be necessary, but when I've lubed prior to sizing and check installation, gas checks stayed on.

All cast lead bullets will use some sort of lube or coating. I knew a guy that "forgot" to lube some 45 ACP bullets and the barrel of his gun looked like a sewer pipe after about 12 rounds. It's advisable to wipe lube off all bullet bases to eliminate any possibility of powder contamination.

Some fellers shoot these without gas checks installed. Here's a discussion about that; Can I shoot a gas check design with out the gas check??? I can't remember shooting any gas check bullets without checks, that's why I got a gas check design bullet mold!

Last edited by mdi; February 7th, 2017 at 09:49 AM.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 11:02 AM   #14
 
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Thanks for all the tips guys!! I will stick to Alox for now, but also try some different mixtures using it, yeah, pan does sound time consuming. Now that I know the difference though, does seem to be a good way to slick them up.

I didn't go with the lubuser because I don't have a lyman press, and it costs more, but I've learned my lessons on cheap parts...... and may learn it again, haha.

I'll probably scoop up the non gas check mold as well a bit down the road, gotta sell some guns first, like my M1A. Ordering the mold was one of those things I had been procrastinating on, so the other day just said, "f it, if I don't get one know, I'll keep dreaming and thinking of it", so I bought a very common design almost everybody's used.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 11:05 AM   #15
 
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MDI, or anyone else on here, one more question, just looked at the 429-421. How and why do guys only put lube on the bottom ring? How is that possible with something like a lubisizer? Or Alox? This must be why some guys pan lube?
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