boblenaere

I am loading .45 colt using starline brass and the Hornady 255 GR FP Cowboy .454 lead bullet (#12458). Had cylinder throats reamed to .4525 on my blackhawk. Had used bullet puller on several cartridges that I had laoded and mic'd the lead bullets. Just above the crimp was still .454 but bullet below crimp (all the way to base) mic'd out at .451. There is only about 1/16 inch of bullet above crimp with the .454 diameter retained. Is this enough to allow for good obturation? When I bell the case mouth I only bell down about a 1/16 inch. Also maintaining C.O.L. of 1.575 per the Hornady Reload Manual. Started thinking about this after reading another post on factory crimp dies. Also wondering if just seating the bullet in the case will bring it down to .451 as it is seated.

Iowegan

boblenaere, Take a look at my post in this thread: Factory Crimp dies

boblenaere

Gary: This why I posted this question; I had just finished reading that post. So my assumption is I am crimping too much and should back off? Or am I not belling the cases down far enough or both?? The strange part is accuracy has been very good. By the way I am using RCBS 45 colt carbide dies.

A Patriot

boblenaere,
I just added to Iowegan's post.

1. Are you using a Lee FCD? If so, don't.

2. Do you seat and crimp in one operation? If so, do it in two opertions.

3. No, I don't think a .451" bullet will expand enough to eliminate leading.

boblenaere

A Patriot: Using RCBS carbide 45 colt dies. Have been seating and crimping in 1 operation. If I seat and crimp in same operation is the die coming down too far on the case and essentially resizing or sizing it down smaller?

Iowegan

boblenaere, I just returned from my reloading bench where I did a couple experiments. First, I sized 4 new 45 Colt Starline brass cases then loaded a couple .454" 255 gr Hornady swaged bullets. These are very soft ... BHN 10. When I pulled the bullets and measured them, I got .452". Seems the bullet's knurled body yielded to the case and sized the bullet down to a perfect diameter. Next I loaded a couple .452" 230 gr LRNs (for 45 ACP). These are BHN 14 and have a smooth body with a lube groove. These maintained the same measurement after I pulled them.

45 Colt is a bit odd in that SAAMI has not changed the chamber specifications since the 45 Colt cartridge was invented (1873 ish). Even though all gun manufacturers have settled on .451" bore diameter since 1951, the brass cases are still made to accommodate a .454" bullet ... just like they did many moons ago. As such, a .451" bullet will slide right in the case with no pressure. A .452" bullet can be pushed in the case with minimal pressure. So ..... to make things work right, the sizing die must undersize the case a few thousandths so you can get adequate neck tension. Here's where things get goofy. Most sizing dies actually undersize more than needed. After you load a cartridge, you can see a slight bulge in the case where the bullet seats. Function wise .... no big deal ... it just looks like the snake that swallowed the gopher.

I suspect a couple things ... your bullets are very soft (which they should be) and are yielding to the harder case ...... and/or ...... your sizing die is a bit on the tight side. Neither condition should bother accuracy or fouling if you are driving the bullets with enough pressure to force them to obturate (bump up in diameter). A BHN 10 bullet will bump up at least .002" if the throats are large enough to allow it. If you have .452~.4525" throats, your slightly undersized bullets will easily bump up to throat diameter and be delivered to the forcing cone at just the right size.

I agree with A Patriot .... seating and crimping in two different operations makes for a better quality product and is less likely to result in a crumpled or bulged case.

A Patriot

boblenaere,
When doing both operations at the same time, the die gets confused and doesn't know when to do what.

Load a dummy round (no primer, no powder) using the one-opertion-does-it-all technique and another loaded in two seperate operations. Pull the bullets and measure them. Chances are, that the bullet from the one-operation-does-it-all case will show signs of lead shaving, will be smaller in diameter than the other bullet, and look down right ugly.

Being anal, that's one reason why I load using two single-stage presses...one seats, the other crimps.

boblenaere

IOWEGAN & a PATRIOT: Thanks for the replies. I have been sorting through this in my head. I find no leading in the bore and accuracy is good. This makes me believe as Gary pointed out that even though the bullet diameter is being sized down where it is inside the case that it is being bumped up under pressure and obturating to bore size thanks to the .4525 throat diameter. The fact that I worked up different loads and noticed that groups tightened up with increased loads also supports this theory. Using Unique I was only able to get 3 inch groups at 25 yards until I reached the 6.5 grain level where groups immediately tightened to 1 3/4 to 2 inches. Now have loads up to 7.75 gr.
A PATRIOT: Have pulled bullets from cases where I seated & crimped in 1 stage. Bullet diameter was sized down to .451 (+/-) but there were no signs of lead shaving. Will try loading with seating & crimping done in 2 separate stages and compare bullets.
Also plan to talk to RCBS today and pick their brains. Maybe my sizing die is too tight as Gary pointed out. Plan to continue experimenting as I too like things to be "right". Really enjoying reloading, really keeps the brain engaged. Bob

flat top

.........as a side note on using Lee Factory Crimp Die with oversized cast bullets: The LFCD "will" reduce the diameter of bullets (even bullets with a Brinnel of 20 to 22...hard) that are oversized because the hardened "insert" in the bottom of the die is made to resize the case to the "standard" after the crimp is applied. I shoot nothing but oversized cast bullets in my handguns, and the LFCD "crimp" is excellent, the "insert" is the problem. What I did was cylindrical grind the insert to .001 over the nominal size of a loaded case with an oversized bullet inserted. I still get the the good...the crimp, but eliminated the bad...the resizing affect of the insert. The insert cannot be opened up by hand...believe it is carbide, so, it must be machine ground. Some folks have cut the bottom of the die off just above the "insert", and although the crimp collet is free floating I was concerned about keeping the case centered as much as possible, and that is why I chose to machine grind the insert, but, I have heard no complaints from those that have cut off the bottom of the die to eliminate the insert. I just wish Lee would make a FCD without that darn insert!!!!

mnh2obuff

Question from the new reloader. I'm just loading HBLWC now for .38s with Lee die set. After I seat the bullet, there is nothing left of the bullet to resize, so should I use the FCD to put the final crimp on the case or just use the seating die in one or two steps? I've only used the Lee Loader with all the hammering so far, but am getting ready to use a hand press.

A Patriot

mnh20buff,
Use the seating/crimp die that came with the set, and seat and crimp in seperte opertions.

A Patriot

boblenaere,
I agree that you should contact RCBS. Resizing the bullet to .451" and having to bump it back up is counter-intuitive. You need a die that will not resize the bullet, so that it starts out fat and gets sized properly after it leaves the case. Instead of relying on obturation, which may or may not be sufficient, start fat and stay fat. As a sage once said, "Bullet fit is king."

I'll stick my neck out and say that if you get the correctly dimensioned die, and not change your loads, accuracy will improve. In fact, you may even be able to reduce the load, and have your powder go further.

I don't know your shooting skills, or if you were shooting off-hand or from a rest or bags. At 25-yards, from a rest or bags, I would easily expect groups in the 1" to 1 1/2" range.

Aqualung

OK, now another question. I have a LEE .45acp 4-die set that includes the FCD. Is the #3 die (seating) die still a standard crimp/seat die, or is it just a seating die?

Aqualung

Sonnytoo

All the above stuff is good. In particular, with the 3-die vs 4-die argument...I presently am using a 3-die. What I notice is that I seat the bullet a little bit on the high side, and as I start to adjust (a little at a time) for a good crimp, the die will seat the bullet a bit deeper. It's probably about a 10 mil difference, so I just seat a bit on the high side. Since I know about it, it does not trouble me. And, as the bulk of my shooting is off-hand at 10-15 yards, I wouldn't notice any accuracy difference. Certainly, I agree that the 4-die is a better idea.
Sonnytoo

boblenaere

A PATRIOT: My shooting skills are rusty at best. I took a 5 year hiatus from shooting while working a full time job and running a fishing charter service on the side. Now that the economy has killed my fishing business I have time to shoot again. I'm working my way back into the groove again and slowly regaining the skill level I previously had. I had a rude awakening when I returned to the range and had a "what the hell happened moment" when i realized how much my shooting ability had deteriorated. The groups of 1 3/4 inch were shot off a rolled up towel. I called RCBS and told them the problem I was having and they are sending me the expander that goes with their "Cowboy Dies" for free. Rep says that will keep bullet diameter up to .453. By the way I really appreciate your and Gary's honest input. Being new to reloading the help from people on this forum has been extremely benficial. Thanks again. Bob

Grampie not Grumpie

I will make a couple of comments. I have Lee carbide 4 die sets in both .45 Colt and .45 Acp and my understanding is that the FCD's are different. The .45 Acp has a taper crimp die and the .45 Colt has regular crimp die.

Secondly I am in the process of pulling a couple of hundred .45 Colt .452 Cast bullets that were too hard for the powder charge. (That is another story.) When I miked the pulled bullets they were still .452 dia. and I crimped them with a FCD. And by the way I pulled them with an inertia puller.

Grampie not Grumpie

A Patriot

boblenaere,
Yep, skills go south when not used on a regular basis. Now that you've have more time, you'll be shooting the wings off a gnat at 50-yards.

Glad to here that RCBS is helping out, and that fixes the problem.

boblenaere

Just received the new expander from RCBS which measures .453 in diameter. Pulled the old expander from the expander die and it only measured .449. Obviously way too small. Should have pulled it apart sooner and checked it. Problem solved. Bob

A Patriot

boblenaere,
Sounds like you are all set.
Why is it that the easy solution, many times, is not as readily apparant as we would like?

boblenaere

This is one of the many reasons I like reloading. It makes you problem solve and perform at a higher level. Bob

huntermett

this is why i love forums like this . i have'nt loaded any 45colt yet ,but plan to and dont want to damage my pair of new vaqueros . i bought the hornady dies for my set up. after reading this post i now know what to look for.