Charlie Two Tracks

Are older manuals ok to use? I know a guy in town that used to reload in the 70's. I know they lowered SAMMI pressures but would data from them be alright to use? I was also wondering if there were any cast bullet specific manuals to be found. thanks.

38-55

All of the older Lyman/Ideal Handbooks are great references. I use mine all the time. They are a great source of data using older powders and older obsolete/discontinued cast "boolits". And they are just plain interesting reading. I pick them up at gun shows and even some reprints. Mine go back to 1948, you can never have too many.

220combat

I started reloading with a Lyman manual from the 70's, that was 2-3 years ago. I don't need to load at max, and I am usually around the mid range for loads, so I don't worry about wether the SAMMI specs have been changed since my manual was published. But, upon reading your post, I made some comparisons. There is only negligible differences in my 30+ year old Lyman book to my newest one. There is actualy more differences from one brand of manual to the other, then there is between an old one and a new one.

A Patriot

Charlie Two Tracks,
Yep, use them.

For cast bullets, Lyman's "Cast Bullet Handbook" is the authority and anyone who shoots cast bullets should have a copy. There is an out-of-print RCBS cast bullet book that can be found on that famous auction site. Compared to the Lyman book, it is not worth the money, though. There is an out-of-print NRA book, as well...man, it is ever pricey!

TenTec

Pretty much the same general consensus as the others. I'm always going thru my manuals to make comparisons and what not. I have a few old manuals along with some obsolete calibers too. So yes, they are good to have around IMO. And as mentioned, a great read with added nostalgia for jacketed as well as lead data too.

Tracer

To answer your question YES! I have reloading manuals dating back to the 1960's. The newer manuals have more of a safety feature in them because of all the lawsuits etc. New manuals are often not as high in velocity and a shade lower actually for MAX LOADS. However, always go by that manual and do not change any of the components in a particular listed load.

Iowegan

Be very careful if you use older manuals. Since the new piezo testing methods started being used by the major labs (to include Speer, Hornady, and Sierra), a lot has been learned about how powder burns and generates pressure. Under the old crusher pressure tests, at best, max pressure was an educated guess. Some loads with certain powder and bullet weight combinations were found to generate way more pressure than what showed up with crusher tests. With the modern technology, the pressure trace is actually plotted on a computer and is calibrated in pounds per square inch (psi). The traces show very high spikes, secondary peaks, and all sorts of stuff that was totally unknown just a few years ago and could damage a gun.

Along with new testing methods came some changes based on SAAMI guide lines that all reputable manuals use. The most significant is the 357 Magnum. In years past, it was rated at a max pressure of 46,000 CUP (43,500 psi). This pressure was found to be excessive so SAAMI lowered the max pressure to 35,000 psi. If you compare older manuals to newer ones, you will see a significant difference in max powder charge weights and velocities.

In the overall scheme of things, a new reloading manual is much cheaper than a new gun. I highly recommend Speer #14, Hornady 7th Edition, and Sierra's 5th Ed. These are all modern manuals with up-to-date load data. Except for a few non-popular cartridges, most loads in these manuals have been retested with piezo transducers and are rated in psi. The older method was rated in copper units of pressure (CUP) so if you see pressures rated in psi, you know they are current .... CUP is old data.

Charlie Two Tracks

I just received a Lyman, Pistol and Revolver handbook from 1978. I got it off of ebay for .99 cents. (only bidder). It has a lot of information in it. How to cast, how casting dies are made and a lot of balistic tables. Kind of fun to read. It also has a section on black powder revolvers and their loads.

A Patriot

Charlie Two Tracks,
Good for you! You'll be pulling it off the shelf and rereading it many times, I pormise.

Anyone who shoots cast bullets and doesn't get a copy of Lyman's handbooks ("Cast Bullet Handbook" or, as Charlie did, their "Pistol and Revolver Handbook") is doing themselves a huge disservice. Even if you pay full pop, about $20, it's the best reloading dollars you will spend.

(I have no connection with Lyman, other than being a satisfied customer.)

Iowegan

A Patriot, I think we look at things a bit different. First, don't believe everything you heard or read about Elmer Keith, even if he wrote it. Elmer was quite a bullshit artist that kind of forgot to tell about his misadventures and would dwell on his success. Elmer's income came from writing articles for Guns & Ammo magazine and from his own books. Just like today's gun rags, mundane topics don't sell magazines so Elmer pushed things to the limit and often far beyond. P.O. Ackley was the founder of the gunsmith school I attended in Trinidad, CO and he used to tell stories about Elmer (one of his best friends) that never made it to the gun magazines. P.O. did guest lectures at the school and used to joke about Elmer saying he was the best thing that ever happened to gunsmiths. Elmer's articles were responsible for more gun damage (from his readers) than any other person in history. Elmer did blow up a lot of guns and the ones he didn't blow up, didn't last long. Something else ... S&W Mod 24 (44 Special) that Elmer used and S&W Mod 29 (44 Mag) that were made later are mechanically identical with one minor exception ... the 44 Mag chambers are drilled exactly 1/8" deeper. The very same holds true with the Mod 23 (38/44) and the Mod 27 (357 Mag). The frames and cylinders were exactly the same size. There's no reason why a Mod 24 wouldn't hold up to 44 Mag pressures, or a Mod 23 wouldn't hold up to 357 Mag pressures, although S&W didn't know it until Elmer started his experiments.

There seems to be a very misconceived notion where some people believe ... if the gun doesn't blow up, the load must be safe. That is far from true. Excessive pressure causes two types of damage ... catastrophic, where the gun does blow up and accumulated, where the gun suffers long term damage. In other words, hot loads will take their toll and reduce the guns safe and useful life. Ever heard of metal fatigue?

There's also some little know facts about powder temperature that can get you into trouble. All powder burns faster and generates more chamber pressure when hot. Here's the scenario ... you work up a nice accurate load on a 60 degree day under shade. You then go out into direct sunlight on a 90 degree day with your ammo exposed to sunlight and put the cartridges in a hot gun. You touch off the first round and strange things happen. I actually experienced this very situation when I was loading 223 Rems with W-748 powder. When I went prairie doggin' on a hot sunny day, I experienced case head separations and blown primers. I thought the first round was a fluke but when the second round did the same thing, I knew something was bad wrong. When I got back home, I did the math and found the pressure had elevated from a safe 50,000 psi to well over 75,000 psi. I was very fortunate ... my rifle didn't get hurt and neither did I. Had I been loading at the high end of the chart, I doubt my rifle would have survived the first round. The very same thing can happen to a pistol or revolver.

The point of this rhetoric is .... new reloading manuals take temperature into consideration and keep the top-of-the-chart loads under maximum pressures up to 100 deg F. The older testing procedures in dated manuals had no way to compensate for temperature and could be unsafe. Another good reason to buy a current manual.

While I'm on a rant ... there another thing that has been bothering me. In many of your posts, you insist on using revolver bullets that are larger than throat diameter. Do you have any idea what this is doing inside your gun? Bullets that are larger than throat diameter make chamber pressure elevate considerably. As an example .... a 45 Colt loaded to the SAAMI standard pressure of 14,000 psi will elevate to 18,000 psi when the bullet is just .001" larger than throat diameter .... even more if the bullet is harder or larger. If you use the right hardness bullet, sized at or slightly smaller than the throats, they will bump up to throat diameter and pressure won't elevate, yet the bullet will be delivered to the forcing cone at the right diameter. Larger bullets are sized down just as if they were forced through a sizing die so there is absolutely no reason to use oversized bullets. Granted, Rugers are pretty tough guns but if someone uses your concept in a lesser strength clone, they might be wearing the gun. If you choose to use your "larger bullet" concept, that's your business but your potentially dangerous procedure has no place on this forum.

Charlie Two Tracks

(edit) Never mind. I reread your post and see what you are talking about.

Wait a minute. I'm not understanding something here. If I am using .358 dia. bullets and my cylinder has not been reamed to .358, then I am dealing with trouble? That kind of makes sense to me. The bullet is made smaller by the restriction of the cylinder and then into the forcing cone smaller than it should be. (correct) even though there is a lot of pressure on the lead bullet. It doesn't have time to bump back up? More pressure is created in the cylinder because of the restriction and gas goes by the bullet in the barrel. Or something like that. A mid range load would lead but not give you too much trouble but a max load could be not too good.

A Patriot

Iowegan,
Not to argue, but do we have a misunderstanding? Cast bullets are larger in diameter than jacketed bullets -- .358” vs. .357”, .431” vs. .429”, etc.

In your "Lead Bullets and Revolvers", in the forum library, you stated to use a cast bullet .001” to .0015” larger than throat diameter. Lyman’s handbooks recommend using a bullet .001” to .002” larger than throat diameter. Bullet casters with more years of experience than I’ve had birthdays say the same thing. I’ve said nothing any different. I've only repeated what you, Lyman, and very knowledgeable casters have said.

Yes, I’m well aware of the differences of opinion as to the truth of what Elmer Keith wrote. Some who knew him well say it was all true, others say some of it wasn’t. I have a bad habit of taking people at their word. Since I’ll never know what was fact and what was not, in “Sixguns”, I publicly retract what I wrote and apologize for mentioning potentially erroneous information, and will refrain from ever mentioning Mr. Keith, on this forum.

Iowegan

Charlie Two Tracks, You're pretty much on target .... Yes, a .358 diameter bullet with a .357 diameter throat will increase chamber pressure considerably (25%). The saving grace is ... 38 Specials are pretty low pressure rounds (17,000 psi for standard and 20,000 for +P) and Ruger 357 Mag cylinders are made to withstand 41,500 psi. Even if pressure does elevate about 25%, you're still within very safe limits (25,000 psi for a +P load). Now if you loaded 357 mags up to max pressure (35,000 psi) in the same situation, chamber pressure would peak at about 43,750 psi, well over max limits, which could damage the gun. The biggest problems come from 45 Colts revolvers where pressure limits are even lower than 38 Specials (14,000 psi). With Ruger Blackhawks or the heavy frame Vaqueos, the cylinders can take 25,000 psi without damage. In Colts, Colt clones, or Ruger New Vaqueros with thin cylinders, there isn't as much room to work with so the highest safe limit is set at 14,000 psi. Here's where a 25% increase due to .001" oversized bullets will drive pressures beyond limits (17,500 psi). That's why it is so important to have throats and bullets the right diameter.

Depending on the powder you use, the bullet may or may not bump up once it goes down the bore. With slow burning magnum powder (ie W-296/H-110), pressure maintains for at least 8 inches of bullet travel. With a fast burning powder (ie Bullseye), pressure drops dramatically after an inch of bullet travel. Mid-burn rate powder are somewher in between. The reason why you want fast burning powder in slower velocity target loads is ... pressure peaks very quickly and forces the bullet to obturate in the cylinder throat and again in the barrel mouth. Once the rifling has engraved the bullet, it slides through the bore quite easily and maintains a good seal all the way to the muzzle, despite a loss of driving energy. This results in a lower velocity load that is very accurate and doesn't foul the bore. This concept kind of resembles hitting a base ball with a bat ... lots of initial energy to launch the ball but the driving energy stops as soon as the ball leaves the bat. Slow burning powder is like shooting an arrow from a bow. The arrow has lower initial energy but more energy continues to drive the arrow faster until the bow string reaches its max travel. So ... magnum loads with slow burning powder will keep enough pressure on the bullet to force it to obturate all the way to the muzzle and generate much higher velocities without fouling or exceeding chamber pressure limits. Of course the above assumes proper bullet hardness to match chamber pressure.

Cowboy T

Iowegan, my load books all say use 0.358" cast bullets for .357 Magnum, which I load for a lot. Same for 0.452" cast bullets in .45 Colt and .454 Casull (both 0.451"). The .44 Mag data say use 0.430" cast bullets for the 0.429" bores. These are recent books, too, e. g. Lyman's 49th Edition of 2007.

Now, as a test, I've loaded a string of 0.450" cast boolits in my .45 Colt, and I got no leading. That's (I believe) because I matched my load pressure to my boolit strength, so I got proper obturation anyway.

That said...what you're saying above seems to be implying that these books are wrong to recommend this. Am I understanding this correctly?

Thanks!

Iowegan

A Patriot, That's not at all what I wrote. Here's the reference to bullet diameter in the "Lead Bullets and Revolvers" article: I totally agree with lead bullet diameters being .001~.0015" larger than bore diameter but that assumes the throat diameters are also .001~.0015" larger than bore diameter. You specifically stated bullets should be larger than the throat diameter, which is not only counterproductive, it can be dangerous.

Cowboy T, No, I really don't think you are understanding it correctly. Your bullet measurements are correct but again, that assumes the throats are sized for lead bullets. I think the confusion here is the relationship of the bullets to the bore vs the bullets to the throat. Simply stated ... bullets should be delivered to the forcing cone .001~.0015" larger than bore diameter. The throat diameter must also be .001~.0015" larger than bore diameter or the bullets will get swaged down.

Yes, a .450" bullet will bump up a couple thousands when several tons of pressure is kicking its butt .... assuming bullet hardness is matched to chamber pressure. As long as you get full obturation, where the bullet bumps up to optimum diameter, accuracy will be fine and fouling will be minimal. The problem most reloaders have is using cast bullets that are way too hard to obturate. In this case, hard bullets won't bump up and will foul the bore, not be very accurate, and will be lower velocity compared to bullets with the proper hardness using the same powder charge.

With S&W 38/357 revolvers, the throats are cut to .358" at the factory , which is just right. I have several and they all pin gauge right at .358" ... none are tighter. With Rugers, you'll find they ship their guns optimized for jacketed bullets, meaning the throats are .357" (if you're lucky). I'm sure Rugers assumes most owners will shoot jacketed bullets so the factory throat diameters are fine for most people. The problem is with lead bullets where nearly all Rugers will be too tight. The 45 Cals are the worst. I've reamed several cylinder throats that pin gauged at .448" .... .004" too tight for lead and .003" too tight for jacketed bullets.

A Patriot

Iowegan,
I apologize for misreading and stand corrected.