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Since when does HP38=231

This is a discussion on Since when does HP38=231 within the Reloading forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; I keep reading on post in several forums that HP38=W231 My new Hornady 7th edition shows the loads to be different between powders. Just glancing ...


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Old November 4th, 2009, 08:18 PM   #1
 
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Since when does HP38=231

I keep reading on post in several forums that HP38=W231 My new Hornady 7th edition shows the loads to be different between powders. Just glancing at the pistol section I've seen as much as .7 grains difference in 32 H&R with HP38 seeming to be the faster powder. Is there a date that both powders became the "same"?
Am I missing something?



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Old November 5th, 2009, 05:15 AM   #2
 
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You're not missing anything, they are different. They may be close but they are not the same. The Reload Bench site shows HP-38 as the 22nd fastest burn rate and 231 as #26. IMO, anyone that says that you can substitute the two in any load could be asking for trouble. The folks that write the reloading manuals don't just come up with the loads willy-nilly, the research is quite extensive. Unless Speer, Norma, Hornady, Barnes, Sierra, et al, ALL said that they were equal, then they aren't and they should not be used interchangeably. I am one that goes by the books, not by what someone I don't anything about says on the internet.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 06:33 AM   #3
 
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I can't check right now but it seems like a recent issue of Handloader Magazine just had a short article about this. Apparently 296 is the same as 110 and I believe 231 the same as HP38. I believe there were a couple others. It's the same powder marketed under two different names. Don't quote me, look it up yourself, but that is my recollection.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 06:49 AM   #4
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkrcpa View Post
I can't check right now but it seems like a recent issue of Handloader Magazine just had a short article about this. Apparently 296 is the same as 110 and I believe 231 the same as HP38. I believe there were a couple others. It's the same powder marketed under two different names. Don't quote me, look it up yourself, but that is my recollection.
I've heard this before from many folks. IF it is true, then some manuals must be using old data that was gathered before the powders were "merged". IF that is the case a person would have to know the date the data was gathered as well as the date of "merging".

Thanks for the input, I'll keep checking into it.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 06:53 AM   #5
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showmebob, Hodgdon has been making Winchester's powder for decades. The formulas are slightly different but for all practical purposes, W-231 and HP-38 are twins.

Here's the actual data taken from QuickLOAD:
W-231: heat of explosion=4060 , burn rate factor=3.50, propellant density=1.550
HP-38 : heat of explosion=4050 , burn rate factor=3.75, propellant density=1.550

H-110 and W-296 are also twins.
W-296: heat of explosion=4300 , burn rate factor=.73, propellant density=1.620
H-110: heat of explosion=4110 , burn rate factor=.8, propellant density=1.620

If you use a chronograph to check your loads, you will experience a slight difference in burn rate from different lots of the same type of powder. As an example, a certain load with W-231 may produce 1000 fps with one lot of powder and 950 fps with the identical load and the same gun, using a different lot of powder. Although powder companies keep their burn rates pretty consistent, the difference in burn rates for lots of powder is more significant than the difference between W-231 and HP-38. Same goes for H-110 and W-296.

Does this mean HP-38 and W-231 are directly interchangeable? For the most part, yes. You can always substitute HP-38 for W-231 (same charge weight). Worst case ... your chamber pressure and velocity my be just a tad lower. Going the other direction ... when substituting W-231 for HP-38, you could get slightly higher chamber pressure and velocity but because reputable reloading manuals have a safety cushion, it's very doubtful you will exceed max pressure, even if you load at the high end of the charts. As I stated above, there is more difference in burn rates between lots of the same powder than the difference between W-231 and HP-38 but despite this, Xringshooter's last sentence is the best advice.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 10:30 AM   #6
 
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Well, I learned something new today, thanks Iowegan for the breakdown of the two powders.

My last sentence is something I thought of when I had seen so many postings of people asking what a good load is for their XYZ thumberbustinloudenboomer. I typically tell them to get a good manual or two (or three) or search the web (I think most of the powder/bullet manufacturers now have their manuals on line). I tell them what might work fine in my gun may blow yours up, I have no idea the condition of your gun, your reloading practices or anything else. I have seen on line where people have stated that the max load listed was XX.X but they knew (wonder how?) that their gun could handle the XX.X load plus a few grains more. I told them to let me know where they were going to test this load so One, I can stay away and Two, Where to send the paramedics.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 12:03 PM   #7
 
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Thanks for the info.
I'm not currently using HP-38 and don't plan to unless the supply of 231 goes dry. I was just studying the books in my attempt to better educate myself. The Hornady manual 7th addition page 786 shows 32 H&R mag 85 grain HP-XTP with HP-38, 3.8 grains at 950 fps and Win231 4.5 grains at 950 fps. Both show to be the maximum load. .7 grains just seemed to be quite a bit of difference for "identical powders"

In 380 90 XTP page 794 it shows HP38 3.5 grains @ 1050 fps. Win 231 3.6 grains @ 950 Again both are max loads. Here the grain weights are very close but the fps variance is larger.

As always I try to load below max and build up to whatever load I end up with. And, I read lots of manuals and ask questions (bet you couldn't have guessed that one) before loading. I always appreciate the information available at this site!
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Old November 5th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #8
 
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Actually neither Hodgdon nor Winchester made these powders. They both purchased them from St. Marks Powder Inc. (Formerly called Primex) a division of General Dynamics. Same powders with lot to lot variations. Same with H110 and Win 296 and several other powders. Some bottles have been delivered with the pasted over the other label.

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Old November 5th, 2009, 02:29 PM   #9
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showmebob, I didn't say they were identical ... just twins. There is a slight difference in burn rate factor. In larger capacity cases, (38 Special and larger) the difference becomes negligible.

Sierra manual: 380 ACP, 90 gr bullet, 2.9-3.0 gr W-231 max vel=900 fps. No load for HP-38

32 H&R, 90 gr bullet, 2.5-3.5 gr W-231, max vel=950 fps; 2.2-3.4 gr HP-38, max vel 1000 fps.

Speer #14 manual, 380 ACP, 90 gr bullet, 3.6 -4.0 gr W-231, max vel 1031 fps; (no HP-38 load)

32 H&R, 90 gr bullet, 3.7-4.2 gr W-231, max vel 1049 fps.

Whatcha gonna believe? Point is ... in skinny small capacity cases, none of the listed powders have uniform data between manuals and even within the same manual. Guess that's why I hate loading 380s ... besides they are too small to handle for my mitts.
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Old November 5th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #10
 
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In addition, for rifle shooters: Winchester 760 and Hodgdon H414 are twins, repackaged from the same bulk drums from St. Marks Powder Co.
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Old December 15th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #11
 
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If you look on Hodgdon's web site now both H110/W296 along with W231/HP-38 are right together on there burn rate chart respectively. Also there load data for a given caliber/bullet weight/style are the same across the board if both powders are listed.

I used W231 for my 9mm and 9 x 18 loads till it got scares so I switched over to HP-38 as a backup powder and can find no noticeable differences between the two when working up loads to the same point in either rd. Of course anytime I purchase a new lot of powder I work my load up again to be on the safe side.

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Old December 18th, 2009, 03:43 AM   #12
 
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At a recent gun show here in Louisville, KY, I was looking for a keg of 231 but was unable to buy even a pound. Two dealers told me the same story...that HP38 is virtually the same as 231. One said that he'd seen a bulk keg of HP38 with a paste on sticker over the 231 labeling and that a relative said that they come out of the same spigot at the plant. Iowegan's chart posted above seems to bear those statements out.

Based on the dealer's statements, I bought a single can of HP38 for trial use. Comparing the actual grains of powder along side those of 231, I can say that they appear to be the same. I've got a chronograph and will be trying out identical loads, in the same brass...in the near future for comparison and will report back.

JMHO, Rodfac

Last edited by Rodfac; December 18th, 2009 at 03:45 AM.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 08:07 AM   #13
 
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Rodfac
Looking forward to your range report.
Bob
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Old January 10th, 2010, 08:03 AM   #14
 
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If you check Hodgdon's web site, you will see that the HP38 and 231 load data is identical, down to the pressure.

Considering that Hodgdon now owns the Winchester powder line as well as IMR, I'd expect to see more powder "merging".
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Old January 10th, 2010, 08:52 AM   #15
 
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Check out these two documents.


http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/MSDS%20F...Propellant.pdf

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20Fi...%20Powders.pdf

OBP = Olin Ball Powder

Dana
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