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New Remington R51 in 9mm

This is a discussion on New Remington R51 in 9mm within the Pistols & Revolvers forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; For what it's worth, I have a Remington 1911 R1 and it is one of my favorites. Very solid, well made and a good shooter. ...


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Old February 4th, 2014, 04:30 PM   #61
 
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For what it's worth, I have a Remington 1911 R1 and it is one of my favorites. Very solid, well made and a good shooter. I have high hopes for the R51.



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Old February 4th, 2014, 04:41 PM   #62
 
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I think ill stick with my M&P Shield. This gun is just ok in my opinion, odd looking bigger and heavier etc, and being single action it should probly have a thumb safety like a 1911..
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Old February 4th, 2014, 05:21 PM   #63
 
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These should be available soon right? Anyone see one or have one yet?
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Old February 4th, 2014, 05:52 PM   #64
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I think ill stick with my M&P Shield. This gun is just ok in my opinion, odd looking bigger and heavier etc, and being single action it should probly have a thumb safety like a 1911..
The old 51 had a thumb safety. They probably took it off because there's a lot of complaints about guns having too many safeties. But I agree, this would be a better pistol if it still had a thumb safety, at least I'd like it better. It does have a hammer blocker and grip safety.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 09:34 AM   #65
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jlh820, Sorry ... I'm a bit late to the discussion. Most people don't understand the "how's and why's" of pistols so I thought I would post a little info.

There are three types of actions used in pistols .. gas operated (Desert Eagles), direct blowback (all 22 rimfires, most low power centerfires ... ie 32 ACP or 380 ACP), and delayed blowback (most higher powered cartridges ... ie 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP).

Direct blowback designs use the tension of the recoil spring to hold the breach closed. Because the bullet travels much faster than a heavier slide or bolt, the bullet exits the muzzle a tad before barrel pressure forces the slide/bolt to move back and cycle the action. This creates a natural delay and works just fine because there is still plenty of pressure remaining in the barrel to operate the action after the bullet exits the muzzle.

Why a delayed blowback design? Simple ... a straight blowback design requires a very stiff recoil spring ... so stiff that most people couldn't pull the slide back to operate more powerful pistols. Using Newton's laws of motion "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" .... as applied to pistols, this means a recoil spring combined with the weight of the slide must develop the same amount of slide thrust as the momentum developed by the bullet exiting the muzzle. As an example ... a 230gr 45 ACP @ 850 fps develops about 28 lb-f/s. If the slide assembly weighed exactly 1 lb, it would take a 28 lb recoil spring to counter slide thrust. A lighter slide assembly would take a proportionally stronger spring. So ... for a 1911 type pistol chambered in 45 ACP, a direct blowback system would require about a 32 lb recoil spring. This system would take a gorilla to pull the slide back! With a delayed blowback design, recoil spring tension is cut in half ... about 16 lb for a full sized 1911, which is manageable by most people.

How does delayed blowback work? When a cartridge is fired, it generates a huge amount of barrel pressure. Barrel pressure will hold the slide in the locked position until the bullet exits the muzzle and has traveled several inches. At that time, barrel pressure has dropped considerably. This change in pressure will allow the slide to release. There is still enough pressure left in the barrel to push the slide fully to the rear and eject the spent case. As the slide moves forward under tension from the recoil spring, it will strip a fresh round from the magazine and chamber it, just like a straight blowback system. Once the slide has moved fully closed (in full battery), the slide is again locked for the next round. For comparisons, the delayed blowback system causes barrel pressure to drop to about 50% that of straight blowback system, which allows the recoil spring to be about half as strong.

Here's a good high speed photo that shows a bullet being fired from a delayed blowback pistol. Note the bullet is well in front of the muzzle, and the slide is just starting to release.

Another side benefit of delayed blowback is a phenomenon commonly called "limp wristing". Before any pistol will function properly, the lower frame of the pistol must be held tight enough to provide resistance to recoil. If the frame isn't held tight enough, recoil will push it back along with the slide (or bolt), which will prevent the slide from moving fully to the rear to eject the spent case. Limp wristing will cause any pistol to malfunction, however because delayed blowback spreads the recoil over a longer period of time, it is less prone to limp wristing malfunctions.

To put things in perspective, I'll use two popular 380 ACP pistols as examples. The first is a Walther PPK/S. This is a straight blowback design that gets a bad rap for being a "jam-o-matic". Why? A PPK/S has a very stiff recoil spring. If the pistol is held very firmly, it will function flawless, however if it is held "not so firmly", the slide will follow the frame and fail to move fully to the rear, causing it to malfunction. A 380 ACP will develop about 13 lb-f/s momentum so with the light weight PPK/S slide, it requires a 16 lb recoil spring. This results in a very stiff recoil spring for such a small pistol that compounds the issues of limp wristing and manually operating the slide.

The next example is a SIG P-238. This very light weight pistol uses a delayed blowback design, nearly identical to a Colt Mustang. As such, it only requires an 8 lb recoil spring that is light enough for people with weak hands to cycle the slide. Further, it does not require a "death grip" to make it cycle properly.

Back before the turn of the last century, John Moses Browning invented the delayed blowback system and used it in a pistol later known as a 1911. Soon after, George Luger designed his toggle bolt Pistole Parabellum 1908 ... better known as the Luger Pistol. Although the Luger toggle bolt was also a delayed blowback, it was not a good design because it had to be machined to very precision standards or it wouldn't function. There have been many other designs for delayed blowback ... such as Browning High Power cam block and of course the new Remington R51. What's the difference? A traditional design, such as a 1911, locks the barrel into the slide with a set of lugs. Nearly all other delayed blowback designs do basically the same thing where the barrel is locked into the slide by some means. The Remington R51 locks the bolt BEHIND the chamber, versus IN FRONT of the chamber. This design is far from new and has been used in shotguns for many years ... however it is new to pistols. Is it better? No, just different. This new design has not stood the test of time so who knows if it will be successful in the long run. At a minimum, I find the Remington R51 a very interesting pistol and would like to put one through its paces.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 09:48 AM   #66
 
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Iowegan,

Thanks for the explanation. I always enjoy reading your discourses, even thought most of the time my grossly, "non-mechanical" mind is going, HUH? You have probably forgotten more than most of us (at least me) will ever know about firearms and I really enjoy your sharing that knowledge with us.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:21 AM   #67
 
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I am interested in one, but not if its made in New York.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #68
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I am interested in one, but not if its made in New York.
Ooh, I did not know that. I knew that Remington-Rand's were made in Syracuse in the 40's, but I had thought they completely shut down (and they were a completely different company.) Now I'm curious where they're at now. --->google
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:31 AM   #69
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Thanks for the semi auto pistol 101 course!

The R51 is new but uses an old design, therefore the R51 has yet to be tested by the general public. But I maintain it represents a significant change in the inner workings of the pistol. I always appreciate unique engineering approaches and I'm glad Remington gave this Pedersen design another chance.

People will decide what they like (hopefully) after shooting various models. I have high hopes for the R51. But I also hope people recognize its differences from the rest of the playing field.

And I'll admit to the point that some people don't care how a gun works as long as it gets the job done.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:33 AM   #70
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Ooh, I did not know that. I knew that Remington-Rand's were made in Syracuse in the 40's, but I had thought they completely shut down (and they were a completely different company.) Now I'm curious where they're at now. --->google

Looks like they're being produced in North Carolina.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:35 AM   #71
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>>some people don't care how a gun works as long as it gets the job done.<<

Makes sense to me.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:35 AM   #72
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I am interested in one, but not if its made in New York.
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Ooh, I did not know that. I knew that Remington-Rand's were made in Syracuse in the 40's, but I had thought they completely shut down (and they were a completely different company.) Now I'm curious where they're at now. --->google
I don't remember where I saw/heard it, but apparently Remington has opened a new facility which is not in New York. These R51's are to be made exclusively at the new location.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #73
 
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I have one on order.. Hope they start shipping soon. Haven't see any show up on GB yet.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 10:49 AM   #74
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Did some quick checking and all I could confirm was that it's US made. There's some confusion over whether it's made in NC or if that's just the main office headquarters.
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Old February 5th, 2014, 11:16 AM   #75
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I have one on order.. Hope they start shipping soon. Haven't see any show up on GB yet.
You should post a range report and pictures after you get it.
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