Ruger Forum

New Remington R51 in 9mm

This is a discussion on New Remington R51 in 9mm within the Pistols & Revolvers forums, part of the Pistol & Revolver Forum category; There are 5-6 on GB right now....


Go Back   Ruger Forum > Pistol & Revolver Forum > Pistols & Revolvers

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes

Old March 10th, 2014, 04:07 PM   #151
 
red feather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 262
red feather is on a distinguished road
There are 5-6 on GB right now.



red feather is offline  
Advertisements
Old March 10th, 2014, 05:11 PM   #152
 
WheelyGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,079
WheelyGuy is on a distinguished road
I am intrigued by this one. Definitely want to check one out in person.

The reviews seem to be either love it or hate it, very little in between.

I'll just have to practice a little patience, give this thing a 6-12 months in the real world and then see what folks are saying about it. I do like the very rounded edges, and like the idea of reduced muzzle climb. If it works as advertised I could definitely see one in my future.
WheelyGuy is offline  
Old March 10th, 2014, 05:25 PM   #153
Conserviberalitarian
 
jlh820's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 11,027
jlh820 will become famous soon enoughjlh820 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by GP Henry View Post
One in a shop last week in CT, it was gone today. $399 was the price.
I've already predicted this to be a home run for Remington and I think it's going to be hard to find for awhile, barring some unforeseen problem, none of which I've heard of yet.
jlh820 is online now  
Old March 10th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #154
 
eastman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 1,083
eastman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlh820 View Post
What? No slide bite? You must be doing something wrong.

Kidding aside, thanks for the report. All good things no know. Was this a rental gun? I once rented an M&P 45 that did exactly the same thing. I told the clerk at the counter of my experience and he said it (gun/mag) was very dirty and that cleaning them up solves the problem. Do I believe that? Thinking back, it could be. If dirt in the mag causes followed tilt, it would account for this problem.

I'm thinking if this was a rental, it may have been fired many times without cleaning.

It's just a wild guess.
It was a Remington demo pistol. The Remington Reps had 2 of the new R51 pistols for people to try and an original R51 to look at (with original box). They said that the R51s were brand new as of Friday. They were getting a lot of range use that day, so a cleaning certainly wouldn't have hurt anything.

When I see one at a good price I will be buying one.
eastman is offline  
Old March 16th, 2014, 04:48 PM   #155
CARSON-WEST - 2016
 
BuckeyeBlast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: at the gun range.
Posts: 5,586
BuckeyeBlast will become famous soon enoughBuckeyeBlast will become famous soon enough
Got my Remington R51... first impressions...
BuckeyeBlast is online now  
Old April 18th, 2014, 09:13 PM   #156
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Rugerland
Posts: 1
brick is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
jlh820, Sorry ... I'm a bit late to the discussion. Most people don't understand the "how's and why's" of pistols so I thought I would post a little info.

There are three types of actions used in pistols .. gas operated (Desert Eagles), direct blowback (all 22 rimfires, most low power centerfires ... ie 32 ACP or 380 ACP), and delayed blowback (most higher powered cartridges ... ie 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP).

Direct blowback designs use the tension of the recoil spring to hold the breach closed. Because the bullet travels much faster than a heavier slide or bolt, the bullet exits the muzzle a tad before barrel pressure forces the slide/bolt to move back and cycle the action. This creates a natural delay and works just fine because there is still plenty of pressure remaining in the barrel to operate the action after the bullet exits the muzzle.

Why a delayed blowback design? Simple ... a straight blowback design requires a very stiff recoil spring ... so stiff that most people couldn't pull the slide back to operate more powerful pistols. Using Newton's laws of motion "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction" .... as applied to pistols, this means a recoil spring combined with the weight of the slide must develop the same amount of slide thrust as the momentum developed by the bullet exiting the muzzle. As an example ... a 230gr 45 ACP @ 850 fps develops about 28 lb-f/s. If the slide assembly weighed exactly 1 lb, it would take a 28 lb recoil spring to counter slide thrust. A lighter slide assembly would take a proportionally stronger spring. So ... for a 1911 type pistol chambered in 45 ACP, a direct blowback system would require about a 32 lb recoil spring. This system would take a gorilla to pull the slide back! With a delayed blowback design, recoil spring tension is cut in half ... about 16 lb for a full sized 1911, which is manageable by most people.

How does delayed blowback work? When a cartridge is fired, it generates a huge amount of barrel pressure. Barrel pressure will hold the slide in the locked position until the bullet exits the muzzle and has traveled several inches. At that time, barrel pressure has dropped considerably. This change in pressure will allow the slide to release. There is still enough pressure left in the barrel to push the slide fully to the rear and eject the spent case. As the slide moves forward under tension from the recoil spring, it will strip a fresh round from the magazine and chamber it, just like a straight blowback system. Once the slide has moved fully closed (in full battery), the slide is again locked for the next round. For comparisons, the delayed blowback system causes barrel pressure to drop to about 50% that of straight blowback system, which allows the recoil spring to be about half as strong.

Here's a good high speed photo that shows a bullet being fired from a delayed blowback pistol. Note the bullet is well in front of the muzzle, and the slide is just starting to release.

Another side benefit of delayed blowback is a phenomenon commonly called "limp wristing". Before any pistol will function properly, the lower frame of the pistol must be held tight enough to provide resistance to recoil. If the frame isn't held tight enough, recoil will push it back along with the slide (or bolt), which will prevent the slide from moving fully to the rear to eject the spent case. Limp wristing will cause any pistol to malfunction, however because delayed blowback spreads the recoil over a longer period of time, it is less prone to limp wristing malfunctions.

To put things in perspective, I'll use two popular 380 ACP pistols as examples. The first is a Walther PPK/S. This is a straight blowback design that gets a bad rap for being a "jam-o-matic". Why? A PPK/S has a very stiff recoil spring. If the pistol is held very firmly, it will function flawless, however if it is held "not so firmly", the slide will follow the frame and fail to move fully to the rear, causing it to malfunction. A 380 ACP will develop about 13 lb-f/s momentum so with the light weight PPK/S slide, it requires a 16 lb recoil spring. This results in a very stiff recoil spring for such a small pistol that compounds the issues of limp wristing and manually operating the slide.

The next example is a SIG P-238. This very light weight pistol uses a delayed blowback design (NOPE) , nearly identical to a Colt Mustang. As such, it only requires an 8 lb recoil spring that is light enough for people with weak hands to cycle the slide. Further, it does not require a "death grip" to make it cycle properly.

Back before the turn of the last century, John Moses Browning invented the delayed blowback system (No, he did not) and used it in a pistol later known as a 1911. Soon after, George Luger designed his toggle bolt Pistole Parabellum 1908 ... better known as the Luger Pistol. Although the Luger toggle bolt was also a delayed blowback (also NOT a delay blowback pistol), it was not a good design because it had to be machined to very precision standards or it wouldn't function. There have been many other designs for delayed blowback ... such as Browning High Power cam block and of course the new Remington R51. What's the difference? A traditional design, such as a 1911, locks the barrel into the slide with a set of lugs. Nearly all other delayed blowback designs do basically the same thing where the barrel is locked into the slide by some means (no, no, no). The Remington R51 locks the bolt BEHIND the chamber, versus IN FRONT of the chamber. This design is far from new and has been used in shotguns for many years ... however it is new to pistols (it was used in the 1920s). Is it better? No, just different. This new design has not stood the test of time (right...) so who knows if it will be successful in the long run. At a minimum, I find the Remington R51 a very interesting pistol and would like to put one through its paces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlh820 View Post
The Sig is commonly known as a locking breech design modeled, like most other pistols, after Browning's 1911. All semi auto pistols are either blowback or delayed blowback (no), however the difference between the Sig and R51 is in how that delay is accomplished.

With the Sig, the barrel is locked when in battery. After firing, it's still locked until the force of ignition begins to move the slide back - this is the delay. Then shortly afterwards the slide and barrel unlock and the residual energy goes to ejecting the spent round, spring pressure then moves the slide forward as it picks up a new round, goes into battery and is locked again.

Short recoil is just another name for this system.

The barrel moving or not is not what determines between blowback and delayed blowback. In the Sig, the barrel tilts, aka tilt barrel. In the R51, the barrel is stationary but the moving/tilting breach block (aka hesitation lock) accomplishes the same thing.

Another example is the toggle link system used in Lugers. Again, it's a delayed blowback with a stationary barrel. In battery, the system is locked. After firing the toggle moves to a point where it's unlocked and bends at the knee. Same thing accomplished different ways

There's no locking system on straight blowback designs. Spring pressure is used to move the bolt back, no locking/ unlocking. Just straight blowback.

Iowegan describes this process much better than I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlh820 View Post
The Sig is commonly known as a locking breech design modeled, like most other pistols, after Browning's 1911. All semi auto pistols are either blowback or delayed blowback, however the difference between the Sig and R51 is in how that delay is accomplished.

With the Sig, the barrel is locked when in battery. After firing, it's still locked until the force of ignition begins to move the slide back - this is the delay. Then shortly afterwards the slide and barrel unlock and the residual energy goes to ejecting the spent round, spring pressure then moves the slide forward as it picks up a new round, goes into battery and is locked again.

Short recoil is just another name for this system.

The barrel moving or not is not what determines between blowback and delayed blowback. In the Sig, the barrel tilts, aka tilt barrel. In the R51, the barrel is stationary but the moving/tilting breach block (aka hesitation lock) accomplishes the same thing.

Another example is the toggle link system used in Lugers. Again, it's a delayed blowback with a stationary barrel. In battery, the system is locked. After firing the toggle moves to a point where it's unlocked and bends at the knee. Same thing accomplished different ways

There's no locking system on straight blowback designs. Spring pressure is used to move the bolt back, no locking/ unlocking. Just straight blowback.

Iowegan describes this process much better than I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlh820 View Post
Actually Sig and most others do use a delayed blowback, AKA locking breech, AKA tilt barrel.

The R51 is also delayed blowback AKA hesitation locked, AKA tilt block.

Both differ from a standard blowback design as Iowegan pointed out. He was pointing out that the 1911 and the R51 both use their own forms of delayed blowback to accomplish the same thing.
Stumbled onto this forum while searching about the R-51. Wow. You guys know absolutely nothing about the operating principles of semi-automatic firearms. You all should probably read up on the differences between blowback, delay blowback, and locked breech, because there is a difference between the three. There have been a handful of actual delay blowback handguns produced over the last century. None of which you've mentioned here.

EDIT
After reading these quotes again, maybe some of you should just leave the engineering to people who actually know physics and engineering.
brick is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 03:03 AM   #157
 
HappilyAddicted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,130
HappilyAddicted will become famous soon enough

Awards Showcase

Quote:
Originally Posted by brick View Post
Stumbled onto this forum while searching about the R-51. Wow. You guys know absolutely nothing about the operating principles of semi-automatic firearms. You all should probably read up on the differences between blowback, delay blowback, and locked breech, because there is a difference between the three. There have been a handful of actual delay blowback handguns produced over the last century. None of which you've mentioned here.

EDIT
After reading these quotes again, maybe some of you should just leave the engineering to people who actually know physics and engineering.

Insulting people's opinions is one way to introduce yourself.

Last edited by LAGun; April 19th, 2014 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Not the New User forum/Hasn't earned it
HappilyAddicted is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 03:53 AM   #158
Double P90 Shooter
 
LAGun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: The Great Republic of Texas
Posts: 13,743
LAGun is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by brick View Post
Stumbled onto this forum while searching about the R-51. Wow. You guys know absolutely nothing about the operating principles of semi-automatic firearms. You all should probably read up on the differences between blowback, delay blowback, and locked breech, because there is a difference between the three. There have been a handful of actual delay blowback handguns produced over the last century. None of which you've mentioned here.

EDIT
After reading these quotes again, maybe some of you should just leave the engineering to people who actually know physics and engineering.
brick,Are YOU an Engineer or have a Masters in Physics?Seriously your first post on a forum you just joined and you refute information that is from a Gunsmith.Just some information for you one of the long time members you quoted is a Long time Gunsmith who has worked decades with these machines.Inserting bolded statements like "NOPE" shows no credibility.Where's the proof?Why would we want to believe a first time poster that has shown NO credentials or proof you even know what you're talking about.There is a word for that it's called Trolling.Unless you can prove to us that you do indeed know more than any of the 40,000 members on this forum and are not just "Trolling" we will be happy to listen.We will be watching and waiting...
LAGun is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 04:14 AM   #159
 
draidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Citrus County Florida The Nature coast
Posts: 220
draidt is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAGun View Post
brick,Are YOU an Engineer or have a Masters in Physics?Seriously your first post on a forum you just joined and you refute information that is from a Gunsmith.Just some information for you one of the long time members you quoted is a Long time Gunsmith who has worked decades with these machines.Inserting bolded statements like "NOPE" shows no credibility.Where's the proof?Why would we want to believe a first time poster that has shown NO credentials or proof you even know what you're talking about.There is a word for that it's called Trolling.Unless you can prove to us that you do indeed know more than any of the 40,000 members on this forum and are not just "Trolling" we will be happy to listen.We will be watching and waiting...
His first word was "Stumbled" that may have a literal description and not rhetorical. Hope he did not have to drive home after making the post.
draidt is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 08:35 AM   #160
 
OhioBrian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Miamisburg, Ohio
Posts: 2,657
OhioBrian will become famous soon enoughOhioBrian will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAGun View Post
brick,Are YOU an Engineer or have a Masters in Physics?Seriously your first post on a forum you just joined and you refute information that is from a Gunsmith.Just some information for you one of the long time members you quoted is a Long time Gunsmith who has worked decades with these machines.Inserting bolded statements like "NOPE" shows no credibility.Where's the proof?Why would we want to believe a first time poster that has shown NO credentials or proof you even know what you're talking about.There is a word for that it's called Trolling.Unless you can prove to us that you do indeed know more than any of the 40,000 members on this forum and are not just "Trolling" we will be happy to listen.We will be watching and waiting...
+1 = brick sure knows how to make an entrance

There are lots of good folks on this forum with years of experience. For a new member to make such a post; brick, prove your point with facts. We are willing to listen; but if you are unwilling or unable to do so, perhaps you should think twice before jumping into the deep end of the pool.
OhioBrian is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #161
 
moakes58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 4,653
moakes58 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappilyAddicted View Post
Insulting people's opinions is one way to introduce yourself.
I am sure he spelled his name wrong. He also forgot his 1st. name little.
moakes58 is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 09:20 PM   #162
Retired Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Blair, NE
Posts: 8,575
Iowegan has a spectacular aura aboutIowegan has a spectacular aura about

Awards Showcase

jlh820, Not to worry ... consider the source and move on to greener pastures. If Mr brick
returns with more bits of wisdom, we will deal with it.
Iowegan is offline  
Old April 19th, 2014, 10:23 PM   #163
Conserviberalitarian
 
jlh820's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 11,027
jlh820 will become famous soon enoughjlh820 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
jlh820, Not to worry ... consider the source and move on to greener pastures. If Mr brick
returns with more bits of wisdom, we will deal with it.


jlh820 is online now  
Old April 20th, 2014, 02:21 AM   #164
 
Rick_a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jacksonville, FL, USA.
Posts: 784
Rick_a is on a distinguished road
Technically the "delayed blowback" locked breach pistols described are short recoil operated.

The R51 is termed a "hesitation locked" delayed blowback pistol.

You can term it however you want, but right is right.

The difference is whether the breach and slide are locked or not during the moment of firing.
Rick_a is offline  
Old April 20th, 2014, 02:30 AM   #165
 
Rick_a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jacksonville, FL, USA.
Posts: 784
Rick_a is on a distinguished road
I'll also add that every R51 I've come across so far has been very difficult to pull the slide to the rear. Perhaps they get easier with some break in.

I want to like it, but they are fairly bulky compared to the competition and initial reports are spotty.
Rick_a is offline  
Reply

  Ruger Forum > Pistol & Revolver Forum > Pistols & Revolvers



Search tags for this page
remington 9mm pistol r51
,
remington p51
,
remington r 51 pistols for sale
,

remington r51

,
remington r51 9mm for sale
,
remington r51 forum
,
remington r51 forums
,
remington r51 pistol for sale
,
remington r51 review
,
remington r51 vs shield
,
ruger r51
,
ruger r51 review
Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Ruger Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
35 Remington lmn Ammo Dump 12 August 10th, 2014 05:45 PM
.35 Remington (Multiple Threads) lmn Ammo Dump 15 January 18th, 2014 12:19 PM
Old Remington 550-1 Age Tack Driver Rifles 0 November 27th, 2012 05:26 PM
Remington Wingmaster vs Remington Express charlie9280 Ruger Shotguns 13 October 23rd, 2012 07:26 AM

Top Gun Sites Top Sites List  
Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2006 - 2014 Ruger Forum. All rights reserved.
Ruger Forum is a Ruger Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent Sturm Ruger & Company Inc. of Southport, CT.