stantheman86

I have found a "niche" use for cheap guns, as high volume shooters, i.e. "range beaters" and just guns to carry where I don't want to risk dropping a nice GP100 into a creek or onto a rocky hillside. (also after a mishap where I ruined the looks of a nice 1860 Army repro by falling on it)

I have tried:

Armscor M200 4" .38 - Worked OK out of the box, got it for $230 new. Very accurate, but after 100 or so rounds the action got "hinky". Either I got a lemon or these are a "strikeout" for a decent, cheap gun. I am sending it to Armscor's Pahrump, Nevada service center as they instructed after I emailed them saying I had problems with it. They assured me I just got a "piece that slipped by QC" and they would fix it free, so for $20 shipping I'll give it a shot to see if this can evolve into a decent gun. I may get lucky and they'll rebuild it or even send me a replacement gun, since the hammer took a chunk out of the frame where the sideplate and frame meet, there was a "ledge" there and the hammer caught it.

EAA Zastava M88- basically a Tokarev compact 9mm, for under $300 it's a very nice gun. I'm trying to tap the pins out that hold the mag block in place so I can use standard Tok mags but they look to be machine pressed in place! One of the few bargains out there for a nice auto for under $300, should have a good service life.

Taurus M83- I have an older one that is solid, got it for $175 used and reportedly the older ones are the "better" ones from Taurus.

Would like to know about-

EAA Windicator .357 revolver- Made by Wiehrauch of Germany, I wouldn't go for their alloy frame .38 but the .357's are all steel. These are like $250 new, and are available in 2" or 4" barrels.

EAA Witness- Looks like a solid CZ-75 clone

Arcus 9mm- A Bulgarian DA sort of Hi Power clone

gqucool

I shot a friends EAA Windcator in .357 mag... well I can say it is not a bad looking gun. But the guns action I guess you get what you pay for!!! But I thought this gun was a POS!! I think what you mention though if you can find a older Taurus Revolver they are fairly good quality much better then the newer Taurus revolvers currently offered on the market!!! My 2 cents worth!!!

bigweatherby

I have an EEA Witness in 10mm. It is a great shooter and seems to be a quality pistol.

frankiestoys

I think we met on another thread but thats ok.
Ive given a few reports on this revolver before. I own a EAA Windicator 4'' .357 steel frame its been a reliable and strong firearm and works fine for what is was designed for. While it is not polished and tuned like a Smith or built like a Ruger or as well known as Colt it handels .38 and 357 just fine ,but it seems to be a gun suited for .38's . The trigger is crude, and heavy ( a trigger job is a must for this gun.) The finish seems durable but poorly applied. The grip is comfortable and alows good control of the weapon. The Sites are fixed and will get you on target .
My need for a ( back up) house gun in a revolver prompted my purchase for the Windicator.
My wife can not pull a slide on a auto so for her it had to be a 38 revolver . After looking at several other models like Armscor, Charter and Rossi i decided on the Windicator it was not a clear winner on all the factors ,but definitly a gun for a niche. I have fired just over 200 rounds with only one issue, (the cylinder would sometimes stick when trying to release it after a few rounds i figured out if you use your right thumb to push on it, it pops right out ) more of a quirk then a flaw.
To sum it up :
For an inexpensive house, truck, boat gun or an occasional trip to the range it will fit that niche.
If you want a revolver to shoot ALOT! Buy a Ruger or a Smith, leave the Windicator home & load it with gold dot .

Cowboy T

Why not just buy a used Security-Six? Only a GP100/Redhawk is stronger, and SS's can be had all day for $300 or less if you shop right.

Another good choice would be a police trade-in S&W Model 10 in .38 Special. Those guns hardly see any use these days--usually in pristine condition, and also for under $300.

stantheman86

Oh yeah, I already have many Ruger DA's and also a pretty good number of Smiths. I did get a good deal on a shooter-grade S&W 10-10 for $200 total, well worn but still a lifetime of use left in it.

I am just an "obsessive" firearm accumulator and I like to have lots of variety in my collection. If there's a type or brand of pistol or revolver I don't have I can't resist but to try one out. I did this with the Armscor and it was kind of a $230 reminder that you truly do get what you pay for. Hopefully they can at least work the bugs out of it so I can get some kind of use out of it.

The Windicator seems pretty decent, in it's .357 form as an occasional .38 shooter with the bulk, dirty BVAC ammo bulk packs that I buy. It leaves blackpowder-like carbon and never really cleans off, but I can get it for $8 a box so this is where the "cheap range guns" come in, so I don't have a nice Ruger Speed Six with nearly permanent black carbon burns on the sides of the barrel, frame and inside the topstrap.

I am the kind of guy that even though I have a real Hi-Power, CZ-85 and everything else, I will still buy a "clone" just to check it out and compare it to the genuine article. I figure best case scenario I have another good gun to shoot lots of cheap steel case ammo through, worst case I take the loss and trade or sell it off to someone looking for a boat gun or something.

I looked into getting a Zastava .357 revolver, just because it looked different and has a kind of S&W/Colt hybrid clone but I read a review from a guy in Serbia who ahd one and said the barrels wear out quickly because they aren't made for "heavy use" so I crossed that one off my list.

mandel 9mm

I'm looking for something in 357 that's not to costly .

stantheman86

Get the "serious" guns first, in other words if you need a .357 for home defense or carry get a GP100 or a Six.

Once I built up a solid "stable" of good quality guns I started "playing" with the cheaper stuff. I've been known to pick up a used $50 Bryco 9mm and just see how long it takes to shoot itself into uselessness! It makes me appreciate the well made stuff even more, to see some of thee utter junk out there that somehow passes for a working firearm.

scattershot

I have two Witness pistols, a .40 and a .45. Both are solid dependable handguns, and I would buy more of them without hesitation.

I also recently purchased a Bersa Thunder 9. They sell new for $340.00, and are very nice hi cap pistols. I understand the Buenos Aries police use them as a duty weapon. i bought mine used for $275.00, and so far, so good.

stantheman86

I have learned there's a difference between "cheap" guns vs. a solid "inexpensive" gun.

I have heard a lot of good reviews on the Bersa pistols, I have never heard of the Thunder 9, but their .380 "PPK inspired" pistol gets solid reviews. A lot of Spanish made guns are very solid, there are a lot of good buys on the surplus stuff too. I have a Star Super B in 9mm Largo and apart from an oddball round it's a very good gun. I have been looking for a full size B in 9mm Para but they are harder to find. I'm not a fan of compact autos and so have passed on several of the "commander" sized Star's in 9x19. Llama also appears to have made some good pistols based on the 1911 design.

Of course, Ruger pistols can be found for some great deals so it's hard to beat a $250 used P89, I think for quality and durability there's not much better out there.

S&W's Sigma sells for $350 or so NIB, and I have seen used examples for $200, when I see anything new by S&W for under $400 I always ask "what's the catch?" I do not own a Sigma, but have heard neither bad or good things about them. They seem to me, to be S&W's "base model"civilian auto pistol. I don't really see any turn up as "PD trade ins" like I did all the 5906's that recently appeared on the used market.

LAGun

I have a buddy at work who has had both he kept the Bersa Thunder and got rid of the S&W Sigma.Sorry I just don't like the Sigma and sorry to say it reminds me alot of the SR9 I guess its something about plastic triggers and bunches of recalls that steer me away...plus being 9mm.We took 'em to the range and he said his hand/finger got tired from shooting DAO.You are right there is a difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive".

capnhector

i own a smith sigma, its an almost glock with IMHO better grip ergo's and a smooth (after stoning the sear a bit) 7.5-8 lb trigger pull similar to a smith revolver. i like it but like my 1911's better. makes a great truck gun though, cheap and goes bang every time and eats any thing i feed it. the original would take a G19 slide no prob, after the law suit smith had to redesign it slightly but if you look inside the two side by side there are only slight differences in sizes and dimentions. the old ones were full of problems but the newer VE models are reliable and i trust my life with it.

stantheman86

As a huge fan of my CZ-85, I am liking the looks of those Witness pistols. I might have to pick up an all-steel full size in 9mm, not too sure about the poly frame ones.

I love to explain to new or uninformed shooters, that are like "Rugers are cheap guns" and I'm like no, they just cost less because they save production costs on crap you don't need as a shooter, like fine polishing and hand fitted forged parts like S&W USED to do. Ruger mastered the art of the casting process, and made a stronger, more durable gun and passed the savings on to the buyer. Then I tell them S&W has done the same thing, cutting costs with MIM parts but still wants $800 for a new revolver so I guess they pass the savings on to themselves!

The Springfield XD's seem like a solid deal for a semi pistol, possibly because they can be made with lower overhead in Croatia, sold for a lower price point here in the US and apparently these sell like hotcakes. Just about everyone I talk to at my little range, or at gun shops has some flavor of XD, I just never had a reason to buy one but now, I would buy one used in 9mm just to play around with. Since I have my CZ85 and Glock 17 I don't really seek out 9mm's that much these days and pretty much all my gun buying cash has gone into seeking out different Ruger and S&W wheelguns.

I just saw the newer Armscor 1911 "A2" 13 round hi-cap....seems the retail price is about $500 for these, wow I remember seeing the plain jane single stack Armscors for $350 NIB at gun shows.....plus I'll have to wait to see how my M200 revolver repair situation turns out before I trust another Armscor-Rock Island product. My new to me-used P90 is kind of my new "shooter" .45 so I have no need for another "range toy" in .45 right now. As in my above posts, sometimes I have some cash burning a hole in my pocket for a new "range blaster" and reportedly Armscor does much better with their 1911's than their revolvers.

LAGun

I just got me an Armscor built "High-Standard Compact Crusader", for a inexpensive gun it is pretty sweet...

liberalsmakemepuke

I'm no gun snob by any means. But I will say, that EVERY time I've bought a cheaper gun, I've regretted it. Maybe it's just bad luck, maybe you get what you paid for. I do know people that have had good luck with cheap guns, I'm just not one of them.

capnhector

its been a battle, cheap guns need more work to make them great then great guns. the sigma for example has an awful trigger untill i took and stoned the sear and contact surfaces and changed a couple springs in the Fire controll group. now its a beautiful shooting weapon but still has a trigger pull thats to long for my tastes because i have relized why i dont like DAO guns. also there are some cheap guns (hi points) that are just crap. i put it that there are cheap guns and there are value guns, the sigma is a value gun. cheap but goes bang and you get IMHO more than you paid for. im looking now at a rock island almost commander which is another value gun, cheap but effective for what im buying it for.

liberalsmakemepuke

I've had my share of value guns too. If their only purpose was to plink or target shoot, I guess some of them could have worked out. If I own a gun, I own it for basically two reasons only: protection and food. If they have any tendancy to go "click" instead of "bang", not hit where I point, make noise when I'm trying to be quiet, FTF, or FTE, I tend to make them get gone.

I realize that all things mechanical WILL fail at some point, but I swear to God, if you searched Murphy's address online, it would match mine.

Again, I'm no gun snob, but I'm also no gunsmith. When I hear some of the work that people put into a gun to make it shoot well, I admire it, and envy it some too.... I like to tinker a LITTLE, but when I'm trusting my life to it, or counting on food in the freezer, to me having faith in it is worth the price you pay. In all of my firearm experiences, the more I've paid, the more faith I've ended up with.... over time.

I'm not ripping on "cheap" or "value". They just haven't ever panned out for me.

stantheman86

Oh I totally agree, I myself don't use the cheap blaster guns I buy in any chance where they might be needed for anything "serious". For example for me to leave several Ruger .357's sitting in my collection, or my CZ-85, Glock 17, etc. and carry a Cobra Arms .38 snub would be pure foolishness.

The only place I use my "cheap blaster" guns is at the range, where a "click" instead of a "bang" or a series of jams, etc. won't mean anything but a target with less holes in it. I have been away from shooting, largely, because of 3 years in the active army including one overseas, so I have not been able to shoot much at all lately, but my ETS date is close and just in time for summer so among many of the things I need to catch up on is lots and lots of trigger time!

In years past I would often shoot 1,000+ rounds of 9mm or .38 out of one handgun in an afternoon, and also hundreds of surplus ammo through some of my "non collector" bolt guns.Those were also the days of $5 a box .38 and 9mm reloads........ The cheap guns came in nicely here, for some reason I cringe a little bit at taking one of my older "vintage" Rugers and shooting it as fast as I can reload until the cylinder is nearly too hot to touch.I just feel I am abusing the gun. I have done this with my Taurus and not cared much about it, but I have recently added a couple beat-up, well used GP100's to my collection so this has all but made adding more "cheap revolvers" to my collection a moot point, since I know these will take more than I can ever give them and then some.

Wideload

Unless a cheap gun is all that you can afford, life is too short to waste too much time on them.

For high volume shooters, if you can afford the ammo, why waste time destroying cheap guns? Get a quality gun, tune it to your liking and shoot the snot out of it.

As others have already posted, there is a huge difference between cheap and inexpensive. If I was looking for a budget blaster in the $300 +/- range today that would be ready to shoot with little, if any upgrades or changes, I would look at the following:

Used S&W K frame and Ruger revolvers in .38 spcl. Deals can still be found on LE/Security Service trade ins if you look around.

Used Gen3 S&W semiautos. There are still LE trades to be found for a decent price.

Used P series Rugers.

If you don't mind 9x18... there was a bunch of CZ 82's that came into the market several months back.

A LE trade Glock 22 can still be found in 330 - 350 range.

Tracer

Now without "fear" of upsetting anyone, I will only say that I too have been down that winding road of purchasing several "cheap pistols" weather they be for plinking, ccw or just something I though might work for a particular apllication.

In doing so, I have always seemed to come about my senses and replaced said pistol with a better quaility, better made firearm, this by the way goes for rifles too. It seems as though reality seems to catch up and Jamming session seem to cease with the better made and higher quailty guns.

My very first Colt pistol was a Python years ago prior to getting my orders for overseas duty! Then later on I purchased my very first semi-auto pistol in a Colt Gold Cup (1911) which seemed high to me at the time but I never regretted the purchase. I went on and picked up two more quality 1911's for competiton and those were custom model 70 series guns.

Years later I came across a new name in 1911's and just had to try one! I 2 days later brought my first Kimber 1911 home. I was impressed to say the least, it went toe to toe with my than Gold Cup. now I have 3 such pistols and they all shoot with great satisfaction on the range. I no longer shoot them much but they are works of art to me, just handling them makes me feel good on a rainy day.

bigweatherby

I tend to have my good guns and my less expensive ones. I will use them all and they all have a use. I have two Sigmas, one in 9 and the other in 40. The trigger takes a little getting used to but they are accurate pistols and have been 100% reliable. I use them as a car gun. I have no problems with them at all.

I recently picked up a Russian made Mak. This gun isn't finished really nice and is somewhat ugly. I have put quite a bit of Silver Bear through it though and it is quite a good shooting piece. I only paid $249 for it. The sights are pretty good with an adjustable rear and the trigger isn't too bad at all. I like it and it definitely was a good value I think.


I don't see any reason not to explore the less expensive gun area. There are some good values to be had out there. I will not put up with guns that malfunction. I will just get rid of them. No matter how inexpensive a gun is, I want to be able to trust it. I have my share of expensive guns too. I just like to diversify.

One more note however... At work a couple guys have brought an ad from a local gunstore that was having a big sale. They were practically giving Hi Points away. Both of these guys were pulled in by the cheap price and asked me what I thought since niether one of them were gun owners yet. They both are away from home for the job once in a while and wanted something that their wives could shoot or that they could defend the house with when they are home. I gave them my opinion that they should look other guns and avoid the Hi Point for this. Both of them looked at me like I had a third arm growing out of my forehead. "But look at that price!" I just ended the conversation there. I gave them my thoughts, take them or leave them. However, price should never be the determining factor of what you will protect yourself with.

Rugerismisticness

Sigma VE;
I bought a new Sigma .40VE with a lazerlyte and pic rail with 2 15 round mags in .40S&W for a grand total of 300$! It was well made, but it took much more technique and practice to shoot than a 1911 or M9. At around 300rounds, I got good with it and put it as a bed gun with some PDX1. The trigger (without modifocation) is very smooth and lightend up after 2500 rounds to 6.5lbs. I think the trigger is excellent, and lets be fair and compair it to a revolver, the trigger is way better than even the 686P.

Sigma 40F
I understand that this gun has had alot of breakages, so I keep the round count low. It is certainly better than the Sigma VE, longer barrel, 4lbs smooth trigger that breaks shortly after pulling, wider than anything, and the mags hold 15+1 in .40. I only have 150 rounds on this, but they've been really good. WWB .40 was grouping 2.5 inches at 25 yards easy. I know it wasn't cheap when it was introduced, but I got it second hand for 200$.

RIA 1911 .38super;
I bought this used as my first pistol and had a buttload of problems with it. FTEs FTF you name it I had it. I changed all the springs, the extractor, polished the feed ramp, and bought some MecGars and now it runs fine. .38 super sure is hard to find, but I've managed to put 500rounds through her with no jams after the modifying. Shes really accurate too, 2inches are easy at 25 yards. Cost me 390$

Walher SP22;
This pistol is considered junk, no one owns one because no one wants a Zamak bolt. This kinda fits into the target rimfire catagory; 6inch walther barrel, target grip, wierd cocking methodes, and the sights are really good. I haven't had any issues except for the occasional light strike. Being a target gun, she will shoot a dime all day with CCI SV at 15yards. I paid 300$

stantheman86

I have that same exact commercial Mak only mine is the .380 version........which I bought pre-Obama as a "carry - shooter piece" and then .380 became unobtanium. I have been looking for the double-stack 9x18 commercial Maks, but have only found them in .380 thus far. Ironically the .380 Makarov I bought as a pure range fun and occasional light carry piece has been sitting in a gun rug for over a year because I gave up trying to find humanly priced .380. I might have ran 1 box through it, but it was accurate and reliable, and it can use standard 9x18 Mak mags so I'll hold on it in the event I ever find a few cases of Wolf .380 somewhere.

I avoid any guns in .380 these days, I just don't care much for a gun where ammo, if I do find it, is $20 a box and I can buy 1,000 round cases of Wolf 9x18 all day For $200...... I passed on a CZ83 in .380, just because I knew I would never do much with it.

I love the 9x18 guns, I think of the 9x18 as a Com Bloc .380 +P. I absolutely love my CZ-82, not too crazy about the Polish P-64 though. I would like to pick up a few more CZ-82's while they are still in the $250 or so range, and keep the newest condition one as an "example" and use the rest as shooters.

I did the same with my Norinco Tokarev, I shoot the living hell out of it because it is worthless to me for anything but a blaster for cheap surplus ammo, I bought it used and it was in neglected, pitted condition, but for $200 with 4 mags included it fits well into my need for a 7.62x25 handgun I could shoot all I feel the need to....I've already had to "rebuild" it with a spare Polish hammer group because it developed a hair trigger, and I'm not too sure about the Chinese steel since I noted some peening in the slide rails but this gun probably has countless rounds on it, bought it WELL used and I've put at least 1,000 through it.....also bought a CZ-52 just to keep "original", because I collect CZ handguns. I did not change the firing pin, rollers, etc. I fired a few mags through it and just put it away. If I ever find a non-refurb "gray" CZ52, as opposed to my blue refurb, I will then "rebuild" the blue 52 and use that as my shooter.

kingstrider

I run across cheap handguns from time to time too. The last three that followed me home cost $100 each including a Nickel H&R 9-shot .22, a Taurus .22 semi auto copied from the Beretta 21A, and a PA-63 in 9x18 makarov. All were pawn shop finds which can be hit or miss depending on what you are looking for.

stantheman86

I would have to say some of the best deals out there for solid "inexpensive" firearms, both handguns and rifles, are the Soviet and former East Bloc stuff.

IMO, CZ makes some of the best firearms in the world,and the CZ-82's are a steal at $200 plus 9x18 is easily found because of all the handguns in this caliber that are coming in.

Whenever I hear of or see the Hungarian PA-63 I think of the interpreter in Iraq we had that carried one of these and I laughed and was like "people buy these for like $100 in the states!" I never thought I would see a PA-63 pop up in Iraq, but I saw all kinds of handguns carried by the interpretors, CZ-70 .32 Autos, those Egyptian Beretta copies, all kinds of stuff.

Even when the Nagant revolvers were $100 out of a crate at gun shows, they make nice little plinkers with .32 Long ammo. I doubt anyone could ever wear one of these out in a lifetime, especially with .32 long wadcutter ammo. I picked up 2 of the Nagants, I've been fighting the urge to "collect" them because as shooters they have limited use to me. I was big into the Mosin rifles for years, but decided about 40 of them is enough. I may pick up a few more 91/30 refurbs.

bigweatherby

From the research that I did before I bought mine, you might want to steer clear of the double stacks. They do not have a good reputation.

Kimber45acp

My cheaper guns have been pretty good.

I have a Makarov, not bad at all. I also have a Radom P-64 in 9x18 Mak, not too bad but the trigger pull is horrible and the safety sometimes goes to on. The P64 is an occasional shooter and one that in a SHTF situation could be used by someone else that I trusted though was not close to.
Now this I am certain I will get flamed for but I have a Hi-Point C9 and I like it. It is ugly, it is heavy, it is cheap (about $130 NIB) but I will say that the accuracy is good and it goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. The C9 loves my 115 gr rn handloads and will reliably feed my Federal PD. I had thousands of rounds through my C9 before I returned it to the factory for some slide wear (The wear was my fault), I didn't seat the pin properly. Hi=Point rebuilt the entire gun and sent me a free magazine for my troubles and turn-a-round time was only about a week.
Yes, I own better quality guns including two Kimber 1911's, but I will not part company with my Hi-Point C9, it has been that good. A note here, the C9 does need a break in period to be reliable but then again, most guns do. The only guns I have ever had that were 100% right from the box were my Grand Raptor and my wifes LCP, even my Kimber Custom 2 had to go back to the factory once.
Really, try the Hi-Point, you have nothing to lose except $130 if you don't like it.

PaiN

I don't want to call it a "cheap gun".....but at $275 my lil' SP101 .357mag was . I bought is to use for hiking and backpacking so I didn't have to risk my $800 main CCW, a black stainless, night sighted Kahr P9.

I had an EAA Witness compact .40S&W, that would have done the job also, had I kept it(I sold it a long time ago to help finance my Kahr). It was a nice and very reliable shooter......
but I'd still rather have this SP101 snubby

The Wolfhound

+1 on the Bersa brand. Solid well made at very good prices. If you can stand having the ugliest gun on your block, the consider the High Point. They have a good rep as reliable and have lifetime warranty.