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Trigger Jobs & legal issues

6K views 41 replies 28 participants last post by  laidlerj 
#1 ·
My Springfield XD(M) 5.25" Competition model in 45ACP is currently getting an action job at Springfield's Custom Shop. As a .45 that holds 13+1 rounds it would make for a formidable home defense gun. The trigger weight will be brought down to 3.5#.

Would this create legal troubles if one actually used it for home defenses?

I fear sitting in a court as a defendant as the prosecutor says: "My client (with a 20 page list of felony convictions) was unjustly shot due to the hair trigger on this man's gun." (As he points to me.) "All he wanted was pay a visit (by breaking down the door at 3am) and for doing so he get's shot due to this man's gross negligence in having a gun with an unsafe trigger."
 
#2 ·
I don't see how that could change a justified shot to an unjustified shot. Either you were protecting yourself, or somebody, or you weren't.
 
#4 ·
My thoughts.
 
#3 ·
Everything about guns is done for legal reasons today. Why do you think a COMPETITION pistol from Springfield come with a 5.5#-7.7# trigger? Not very completive at all. BTW, should that not be high enough, their Custom Shop can raise it up to 10-12# (like if you're a member of the NYPD).

It's so some moron can't accidentally get shot. Even Ed Brown isn't so bold as to go under 3.5# on 1911s that have a starting prices of $3,000. Evidently, Mr. Brown's lawyers have explained that there are idiots with piles of money who can afford $3,000 for a single gun, but evidently can't afford any training in how to operate a firearm.
 
#6 ·
I do not worry about such things. A number of years ago, a D.A. in N.C. told me that there is little if any possibility that any D.A. would hold one liable for a tuned trigger than for a sharpened knife used in self defense.
 
#13 ·
I live in NC too - and like you said - what difference is a 10# or 2# trigger legally? If that was an argument they could say that razor sharp hunting knife you carry is too sharp and you must carry a knife that has been flatfiled across the blade so it will not cut a person.... even our screwed up legal system is not that screwed up . . . .

By the way my Kimbers are certainly less than 3#'s...

GB45
 
#8 · (Edited)
I have heard this argument over and over throughout the years. I am NOT a lawyer, so I am NOT giving legal advice. But for what it is worth, here is my two cents:

If a prosecutor attempted to make me look negligent because of having a "hair trigger" or a very lightened trigger pull - I would rather simply reply....THAT I MEANT TO SHOOT HIM.

That pretty much takes out any argument of a "negligent" discharge due to a "hair trigger". If you meant to shoot the perp, then it matters not if that trigger pull was 2.5 lbs or 12 lbs. There was no NEGLIGENT shooting on your part because you INTENDED/MEANT to shoot the bad guy......PERIOD!

That diffuses any and all attempts by a prosecutor to say that your "hair trigger" caused you to shoot when you really didn't intend to (an accidental or negligent discharge). To hell with that line of BS. You just say that you INTENDED to shoot the perp for X,Y,Z reason(s). i.e. - your life was threatened and in danger because the perp pulled a knife on you, etc....

That is exactly what I would tell the prosecutor - YES! I intended to shoot my weapon and to discharge my gun. That makes your shooting totally intentional and under your complete control and within your rational and prudent decision-making. If it truly was a justifiable shooting, and you shot the perp intentionally, then you are clear.

These moronic prosecutors that would ever dare to make a negligence issue out of a very light-weight trigger pull on a gun are just asinine!! If a gun has a very heavy trigger pull, that in my opinion can make a gun shoot "unsafely" or "negligently". How so? Well, you may miss the intended perp and shoot an innocent bystander if you have a really rough and super-heavy trigger pull. Duh!

Anyhow, if you intentionally shot a bad guy and were justified in doing so (he was breaking down your front door at 3am, etc.) then just tell the prosecutor that you MEANT to shoot the scumbag in question.

That is how I would diffuse any arguments relating to trigger mods done to one of my guns used in a self-defense scenario. I INTENDED to shoot the POS in defense of my life and/or in defense of my loved ones lives. End of story ;)
 
#9 ·
My Springfield XD(M) 5.25" Competition model in 45ACP is currently getting an action job at Springfield's Custom Shop. As a .45 that holds 13+1 rounds it would make for a formidable home defense gun. The trigger weight will be brought down to 3.5#.

Would this create legal troubles if one actually used it for home defenses?

I fear sitting in a court as a defendant as the prosecutor says: "My client (with a 20 page list of felony convictions) was unjustly shot due to the hair trigger on this man's gun." (As he points to me.) "All he wanted was pay a visit (by breaking down the door at 3am) and for doing so he get's shot due to this man's gross negligence in having a gun with an unsafe trigger."
Seems to me any legal troubles would go to the deep pockets of the custom shop since they are doing the work. Now if the shooters attorney is arguing accidental discharge for some reason the whole thing changes.
 
#10 ·
I think these are issues that are a much bigger deal on the internet than they are in real life.
 
#14 ·
For a carry/home defense/duty pistol, shouldn't a 5 lb SA pull be the minimum?
Everybody thinks they'll perform flawlessly in an armed confrontation, but that is often not the case. Stress reaction can cause problems with fine motor skills, even in the most trained and experienced persons, and a 3-4 lb trigger might not be the best thing to have in that situation.
 
#16 ·
As others have said, this question has come up a few times already.

The bottom line is that modifications to a gun can come back to bite you under only a few circumstances. For the most part, if you intended to shoot the person, it won't matter if the trigger required a 5 lb pull or a 5 gram pull - your intention was to shoot.

However, if you are claiming that the shooting was accidental, having "modified" the gun can hurt you because the prosecutor or plaintiff's lawyer might argue that your modifications contributed to the "accident".

The other place where gun modifications can hurt you in court is if the prosecutor (or plaintiff's attorney) argues that - for example - engraving "scum-bag eliminator" on your carry pistol indicates that you were "trolling" for trouble in order to shoot somebody. It would still be a stretch, but I've made a point of not putting any death's heads or "zombie" logo stuff on any of my carry guns. It just gives a lawyer material to "muddy the water" and cast doubt on your motives.


Jim
 
#18 ·
I vow this will be the last time I reply to a discussion such as this [though that's what I promised myself the last time]...and, I am a glutton for punishment.

Let's first get a few basics out of the way: 1) every state's laws are different [e.g., duty to retreat, Castle Doctrine, etc.]; 2) every person is different; 3) various jurisdictions are more "pro-gun" then other jurisdictions [e.g., Texas vs. New York]. It seems when this topic arises, if 100 people reply, we end up with 100 differing opinions...mine is merely one more - no more or less viable then the next.

As a way of background, perhaps this would be the best time to "out" myself - I am a lawyer. Perhaps even worst, I was a trial lawyer for most of my career. HOWEVER, I offer this reply merely as an opinion and NOT legal advice.

While I do believe the U.S. jury system is not flawless, I am far too ignorant to come up with a better system of dispute resolution. Perhaps the antiquated aspect of our jury system is the concept of a jury of one's "peers". This may have worked when the U.S. Constitution was drafted and the vast part of the population were farmers or "smiths" [blacksmith, copper-smith, shoe-smith, gunsmith, etc.], but in the 21st Century I'm not sure any defendant is truly being tried by a "peer".

Now to the jury system as a whole. Let’s be honest – the vast majority of juror’s simply do not want to serve. Sure, some feel a higher level of civic duty then others; but serving is a major inconvenience and often a downright hardship. When a trial finally reaches the point when jurors are sent to deliberate and render a verdict, most jurors want to reach a decision and “get out of there” as fast as possible. The problem arises when there is a “hold-out”. As a last resort, a judge can declare a mistrial – but most are reluctant because to do so renders all prior effort wasted. So jurors are admonished and sent back for further deliberations. In more instances then I care to speculate, the way around a stalemate is for the collective jury to compromise. The result is a verdict of manslaughter when the overwhelming evidence was for murder; or, trespassing when the attempted burglar was scared off before completing his crime; or a civil judgment of $50,000, when injuries were in excess of $100,000 but the “hold-out” questions whether the defendant was even negligent in the first place. Remember, juries often do the right thing for the wrong reason or the wrong thing for the right reason. In essence, a verdict is sometimes rendered, figuratively, by a “roll of the dice”.

Now ask yourself: “If, God forbid, I ever found myself being tried criminally or civilly for a defensive shooting, do I want my fate decided by a roll of the dice?” I don’t! I don’t want any juror distractions! All I want is a clean set of facts, pure and simple – I feared for my [or a loved one’s] life and I shot the attacker in self-defense. The last “red herring” I want a jury considering is the fact that the gun I used had a lightened or modified trigger. I wholeheartedly agree that this issue should be meaningless – indeed, it should not even have been presented as evidence. But I also realize that if a minority of those jurors wants to find me guilty regardless what the facts show, this might be the issue used to arrive at a “compromise”. So, for me, I keep it simple. Any CCW I carry or home defense weapon will always be to manufactures specs as to the trigger. I will tweak my range guns to my heart’s content.

Let the flaming begin!
 
#22 ·
The most I do on carry guns is smooth the action and maybe a better sight system. Both increase accuracy and would be easily defended.

I am sure you know that there are a lot of people who know nothing about firearms. Probably best case would be to choose the firearms the local police use and with their ammo choice too. It has got to be good, right?
 
#23 ·
I'm not a lawyer, and don't/won't live in a liberal environment, but around here justified self defense shootings never result in any charges.
I've still never seen any examples of a justified shooting being made unjustified because of any firearm modification.
 
#24 ·
I've mentioned this in other threads on this topic. I'm not a lawyer but my sister is a lawyer and she did a legal search for cases where "modifications" to a gun had been brought up in trial. What she found were mostly cases where the shooting was claimed to be accidental. A few of these turned out to be murder cases where the shooter was trying to make it look like an accident (according to the jury decision).

There were also a few cases nationwide where alterations to a gun were used to imply that the shooter was "looking for a fight" (one that sticks in my mind was a pistol engraved with the words "scum-buster"); the outcomes suggested that this did not have a major impact on the jury, but that it might "tip the balance" in close cases.

There were a few cases where the prosecutor brought up issues of a "hair trigger" or "high-capacity magazine" or even "quick-draw holster" in an attempt to convince the jury that the shooter wasn't acting in self-defense, but that didn't appear to influence the jury.

In general, if your intention was to shoot a person, any gun modification that makes that easier is pretty much irrelevant. Obviously, a prosecutor may try to make it an issue, but it doesn't seem to influence juries or judges, probably because it doesn't make sense.

One small caveat: if you choose to carry a gun with a trigger pull lighter than the factory standard, be damned sure to keep your finger off the trigger when you draw it. Juries have been very unsympathetic to shooters who accidentally fire a round and hit an innocent person.


Jim
 
#25 ·
One small caveat: if you choose to carry a gun with a trigger pull lighter than the factory standard, be damned sure to keep your finger off the trigger when you draw it. Juries have been very unsympathetic to shooters who accidentally fire a round and hit an innocent person.
Of course, the person you're most likely to shoot is yourself -- most likely in the leg, so yet another strong incentive to draw a gun properly. A lighter trigger makes a hole in your leg even more likely if you don't handle a gun properly. And it's going to be a BIG hole as this is a .45 that's getting a trigger job in my case.
 
#26 ·
Let's say someone defends their home with a 12-gauge loaded with 00 buckshot. Odds of bad guy surviving a close range blast: he's almost surely DOA. Any possible legal argument that you selected this weapon knowing it had a very high probability of producing death? As opposed to defending your home with a 9mm where you could stop a threat and odds are the bad guy would live? After all, stats show that of those who get shot by cops only 20% of them die. In short, handguns fail to produce death in most cases. And we're talking about folks that are frequently shot numerous times. I knew an ER doctor who after patching up a patient with 7 bullet holes and releasing him as he wasn't in bad enough condition to require admittance to the hospital was highly unimpressed by handguns. This doctor kept a shotgun for home defense. Evidently, he wanted bad guys DOA.
 
#27 ·
Any possible legal argument that you selected this weapon knowing it had a very high probability of producing death?
No, there is no increased legal liability for choosing a "more deadly" deadly weapon.

The use of "deadly force" is defined as that - deadly. Whether it's a 12ga with 00buck, a 458Win mag, or a 22long rifle, they're ALL considered "deadly weapons" because when you use one properly on somebody, they're likely to come out dead.

There ARE "overkill" considerations, but 'power factor' of your weapon is not one of them. "Overkill Circumstances" that would bring the shooting into question would be something like standing over the downed victim and shooting them again, or reloading and shooting them more after the threat was obviously eliminated, or chasing a wounded intruder/assailant out of your home to "finish them off".

But no, there's no way that any gradation of "deadly force" based on weapon choice ever comes into play.
 
#36 · (Edited)
If they don't bring it up, then don't mention it. If they do bring it up, defend your decision to install a target-style trigger.
Keep in mind that it is legal to lighten a trigger pull, it is the PA's of America that attempt to make it appear criminal.
That is a sad thing to say, but true.
If all else fails, ask that the jury members each be allowed to pull the trigger. Ask yourself, would they consider it too light?
Keep the pull reasonable and trust that reasonable men and women will find in your favor.
BTW: a .45 that holds 13 or 14 rounds would make an excellent home defense gun. I concur with your choice of gun.
 
#37 · (Edited)
Can someone find real case law examples of a person getting sued after a justified self defense shooting for having a lighter trigger?

Or using hand loads....

Or a cocked revolver.....

Or "Magnums".....

I have a GP100 sitting next to my bed right now with lighter springs , a DA/SA standard hammer and loaded with Black Talon .357. If someone broke in my house and I shot them with a "more lethal anti body armor Black Talon" .357, after cocking the hammer and pulling the lightened 4 lb trigger.....I wouldn't expect to be held liable. If the round goes through my wall and hits an old lady 500 yards away then yes I'm screwed....regardless of the poundage of my trigger.

I doubt there would be a problem if you used an old Winchester rifle with a double set trigger, that when set, a mouse fart would set it off, to defend yourself.
 
#39 ·
In most stand your ground states there is a liability limitation on civil suits if the shooting is found to be justified by the District Attorney. The question becomes was the shooting justified and the typical standard is: Was I in fear for my life and/or the lives of others (presumably family). If the answer is obviously yes then no problem. IMHO that is what matters not whether you were using a firearm with a slicked up trigger or action, you were shooting reloads or standing on your head. If a reasonable person would feel in fear for their life then the standard has been meant. Whatever happens after a shooting tell the police you are in need of medical attention. That will give you time to get a lawyer to guide you through the process and to calm you down as your are hyped up on adrenaline and you mouth doesn't always jive with you brain.
 
#41 ·
There are several points here I agree with:

1) LEO training is for the most part inadequate - qualifying annually, semi-annually or even quarterly on a 40 or 50 round Q course under artificial conditions just isn't enough. Before I transferred to the east coast, we'd often have a few LEOs and the occasional FBI agent show up at our tactical matches to improve their shooting skills. They were a clear minority. Most officers are not gun people and do not shoot well at all.

Pick pretty much any study and you'll find hit rates around 15% at ranges less than or equal to about 7-12 yards and in good light. At night or at longer range, it gets worse.

Unless you are a gun person who shoots frequently, you'll do even worse.

2) As a few have noted, a light trigger pull is not an issue in an intentional shoot. It is an issue when your daughter sneaks out then sneaks back home in the middle of the night and you, thinking it's a burglar with felonious intent, accidentally shoot her because you underestimated the weight needed to fire the weapon, under stress and under the effects of adrenaline. Obviously proper identification is key here, but the last thing you need is a 3.5 pound trigger while you are assessing the situation under stress.

That's been a factor in LEO shoots as well, with the result that many departments specify heavier trigger pulls.

3) The growing popularity of striker fire weapons with all of the safety mechanisms tied to the trigger (like the Glock that started this whole mess) has led to an increasing number of ADs and injuries due to the relatively short and light trigger pull compared to the DA revolvers they replaced in police service.

That's with a duty holster as well - when you add in concealed carry, a potentially cheap holster with a mouth that may fold over and enter the trigger guard and a variety of other clothing related items that may enter the trigger guard when holstering - the results are inevitable.

4) In LEO shoots you have the backing, legal protection/representation and insurance of the department behind you. In a CCW shoot, it's just you, and even if it's a justified shoot, in many jurisdictions you will be sued. They may or may not be successful but it will take years off your life and tens of thousands out of your pocket whether they win or not. A light weight trigger won't help your cause, especially if a heavier trigger would have prevented an accidental shooting, as the trigger mod will be seen as contributory negligence.

5) Going from a stock 5 or 6 pound trigger on a semi-auto to a 3.5 pound trigger has absolutely no benefit in a self defense shoot, and is just a potential liability. It also makes a lot less difference than you think for other sporting and target purposes. The more you practice the less the heavy trigger will matter.
 
#42 ·
As Model 52 (and others) have pointed out, having a light trigger pull in a self-defense gun isn't necessarily a good idea. Although you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger unless it's time to shoot, in a real self-defense situation, you might find your trigger finger getting a bit ahead of things. If you have a light trigger, you might also have an unexpected discharge.

What I've done on a few of my self-defense guns is get a "trigger job" that makes the trigger pull smoother without making it lighter.

If you shoot someone, be prepared to be asked a lot of irrelevant questions by people who don't know much about firearms. Even most police officers are relatively ignorant about guns apart from their issue weapon. DO NOT get into a gab session about guns with anyone - remember the part about "anything you say can and will be used against you in court". If you are asked about your gun, the ammunition, how many shots you fired or why you carry a gun, the best answer is:

"I'm pretty shaken up by all this; I'll answer once I've had a chance to talk to a lawyer."​

I'm not a believer in the "Don't say anything" rule - you need to give the police enough information so that they can gather the evidence and witnesses to support your innocence - but nothing about your gun, holster, ammunition or why you carry will help you, so keep it to yourself. If you've gotten a "trigger job", it most likely won't come up unless you mention it; if the crime lab tests your gun and discovers a light trigger pull, then it might come up at trial, if things go that far. Then, you can give your explanations.

I know that I've brought this up before, but customized features like engraving "smile and wait for flash" on the muzzle, grips with skulls or the like will be hard to explain to the jury if you end up going to trial. Those sorts of modifications don't increase your chance of getting "A-zone" hits, but they can be used to create doubt in the mind of the jury.


Jim
 
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