WvDave

I have been using the Otis cleaning system and it has worked out real well. Easy to push the little cable in from either muzzle or chamber end, and attach patch holder or brush.
I also use Boresnakes on my .22 pistols. Semi-autos I just take down and clean the barrel. My MK III and Single 10 get the Otis or B'snake.

Iowegan

I think it's fascinating how these urban gun legends start and propagate to other guns. Here's the breach end cleaning legend:

Many years ago, bench rest rifle shooters noticed there was more bore wear closer to the muzzle than at mid bore. Additionally, the barrel's crown also enlarged .... both conditions having a negative influence on accuracy. Some unknown respected shooter determined the damage was caused by a cleaning rod rubbing on the bore and crown. The word got out ..... it didn't take long for most bench rest rifle shooters to change their cleaning regimens to breach end cleaning, even though there was no proof that cleaning rods were the cause. After shooters began cleaning from the breach end, muzzle end bore wear and crown damage was unchanged but because the urban gun legend propagated so much, there was no way to otherwise convince shooters. As time went on, this unproved theory found its way to pistols and revolvers. To compound the problem, manufacturers made new gun cleaning products to capitalize on the legend, claiming their products prevent bore and crown wear. These include bore snakes, carbon fiber rods, and cleaning rod bore guides. Further, the legend expanded to include soft metal cleaning rods (aluminum or brass), claiming the soft metal picked up abrasive residue and increased bore wear while other legends claimed hard metal (steel) cleaning rods increased bore wear.

Something just didn't make good sense so Gale McMillan, one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time, conducted extensive tests to prove or disprove the "cleaning rod theory". The US Army also conducted extensive test with GI issue cleaning rods (steel). Turns out, results from both independent tests proved beyond a shadow of a doubt ... bore wear near the muzzle and crown wear had absolutely nothing to do with cleaning rods, rather it was a product of normal wear caused by bullet friction and jet blast. McMillan's findings made perfectly good sense .... bullets increase in velocity as they travel down the bore and reach their highest velocity as they exit from the muzzle. The higher the velocity, the more the bore will wear. Additionally, muzzle blast (jet blast) that occurs as the base of the bullet exits the muzzle erodes the crown. The Army's tests concluded ... steel cleaning rods did not influence bore wear or crown damage, in fact the standard GI issue cleaning rods for all military rifles are still made of steel.

Because this urban gun legend has been floating around for more than 50 years, most shooters are convinced it's true, even though conclusive tests prove otherwise. The good news is ... cleaning from the breach end or using new products (bore snakes, bore guides, carbon fiber rods, etc) do work just as well as the old techniques so it really doesn't make any difference which procedure you use ... as long as you do keep your bore clean.

Here's some info on crowns: The concept for crowns is to make sure the bullet exits the muzzle with equal pressure applied on all 360 deg of the bullet base. If jet blast pressure is not uniform, the bullet can be blown off course. The three things that make a crown influence accuracy are: Velocity ... the faster the bullet' muzzle velocity, the more the crown will influence accuracy. Bullet weight .... the lighter the bullet, the more the crown influences accuracy. Bullet diameter .... the smaller the caliber, the more the crown will influence accuracy. So ... the gun's accuracy most affected by a crown would be rifles chambered in 17 Rem, 22-250, 220 Swift, 223 Rem and other high velocity, small diameter, and light weight bullets. The guns accuracy least affected by a crown are large bore handguns such as a 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 44 Special, etc.

If you want to damage your bore or crown, here's some things that will do it: Using an electric drill to spin the bore brush, fire lapping, dropping the gun on the muzzle, and storing a gun in a humid climate without cleaning it.

ratznfragn

Thank you for that information,and clearing up those misconceptions.
I also had wondered what all the doom and gloom about cleaning from the muzzle was all about. Now I know it's just misinformation.

Iowegan

More fuel for the fire ... a typical magnum cartridge generates about 35,000 psi chamber pressure. Barrel pressure at the muzzle can be as high as 20,000 psi. Smokeless gun powder burns at temperatures between 5000 and 6000 deg F. Bullet-to-bore friction is rated in hundreds of pounds. So ... firing one single bullet will generate a huge amount of heat, pressure, and friction. If you think you can come anywhere close to these friction, heat, or pressure levels with a bore brush and cleaning rod, you are dreaming. In other words, firing just one round of ammo will cause way more wear than a cleaning rod or bore brush can do in many hours of continuous use.

Spike12

Once again science, technology and a formal education triumphs over ignorance, superstition and the forces of darkness.

Deacon07

From the articles I''ve read the problem with running down the barrel is the posibility of depositng both residue and cleaning fluid into the action and trigger mechanism.
I always keep my fingers at the end of the run so I can feel the patch coming out and stop it. That's when I return the patch back out the bore.
There are new systems which allow you to pull the patch from the bore end via a flexible rod and and a patch holder that pivots after sending it down.

GP-141,
Sr1911,
Early Single Six

mnh2obuff

I Rwly on the pull through Otis system for most of my cleaning, but when I need to brush I use the muzzle guide to keep the cleaning rod form contact the barrel.

Dewey Muzzle Guide 35 Cal 9mm Brass

Deacon07

Hope you don't mind but I copied and pasted your reply to add to my info on guns. Good info for anyone who is interested in spreading the news , it's O.K. to own a gun for for sport and pleasure.

Iowegan

If you look at past posts in this maintenance section, you will see a huge variation in cleaning techniques, cleaning products and lubrication products. I have my own opinions on cleaning as do most of our other members. I don't think any one technique is perfect nor is any one product perfect. In this thread, we were discussing cleaning from the muzzle end versus the breach end and in my opinion, it really doesn't make any difference as long as you do a good job and remove powder and bullet residue from the bore then use a product to prevent future rust and pitting. No one should fault you for taking extra measures like breach end cleaning, if you feel they are necessary.

In my opinion, the best products to use are those specially designed for gun care. Automotive or household products may work but often have properties that may not be well suited for firearms. There are also some gun cleaning products that may damage polymer, plastic, paint, or wood finishes so always test your products on a place that doesn't show ... just to make sure it won't eat, discolor, or damage parts.

Because this thread was mostly concerned about bores, here's some tips: First, there are three issues with bores ... powder residue, bullet residue, and future corrosion prevention. If you don't address all three of these issues, IMO, you aren't doing a thorough job. Second, the tools needed to do the job, and third, the products needed to take care of the above issues.

Let's begin with "tools" ... specifically bore brushes and cleaning rods. Just like I mentioned in the previous post, manufacturers like to capitalize on gun myths and will sell you all sorts of things with claims of being the best. Avoid stainless steel bore brushes ... they will indeed scratch your chamber and bore. Bronze bore brushes are very good but nylon brushes are even better and will last longer, providing you don't use cleaning products that "eat" them. Always use the proper size bore brush for your bore caliber. Obviously a brush that is too small isn't going to scrub very well. Brushes that are too large (ie using a 40 cal brush in a 357 bore) don't scrub well either, even if they fit tighter in the bore. The tips of the bristles are what does the scrubbing so when you use oversized brushes, the bristles will bend and the sides won't scrub as well as the tips. When bore brushes wear out ... throw them away and don't use them with smaller bores.

Next is cleaning rods. For centerfire rifle or handgun bores (6.5mm or larger) I always recommend using a 1/4" diameter cleaning rod. They are stiff enough where they won't bend and will keep the bristles of the bore brush perpendicular to the bore. For 22 cal rifles or handguns, a 13/64" diameter rod is best. Avoid using a 22 cal cleaning rod with larger center fire bores ... too wimpy. Personally, I use a bore guide too, although not really necessary. Bore guides are a section of brass or aluminum with a tapered cone that fits in the muzzle and has a hole in the center for the cleaning rod. A bore guide will keep the brush centered in the bore and make it scrub better. Manufacturers sell these with false claims of preventing crown/bore damage but they do indeed improve scrubbing and make the brush last longer. Cleaning rods can be made of aluminum, brass, steel, or carbon fiber ... material is not really important as long as it doesn't react to the products you use.

When you start cleaning the bore, the first thing you should address is powder residue. There are several good products designed to dissolve powder residue such as Hoppie's #9. Powder solvents do an excellent job of removing powder residue but don't do a good job of removing bullet fouling and don't provide good corrosion prevention. The recommended procedure is to soak a clean patch with powder solvent then run the wet patch loosely through the bore. Give the solvent a few minutes to work then squirt some more solvent in the bore. Scrub the wet bore with a properly sized bore brush. A few back and forth strokes is all you need. Follow up with a clean patch and run it through the bore with a cleaning rod. Inspect the bore for signs of lead or jacket fouling, depending on what type of bullets you have been shooting. If you see "copper" (actually gilding metal) on the rifling from shooting jacketed bullets, you should use a good jacket fouling solvent such as "Sweet's 7.62". Again, wet the bore liberally with a patch and give it several minutes to work. Use a nylon bore brush to scrub the bore. Bronze bore brushes don't work well with jacket solvents because the solvents will eat the bristles and there won't be enough solvent strength left to dissolve bullet residue. The same holds true for brass cleaning rods. Once the bore has been scrubbed for jacket fouling, use clean patches on a cleaning rod jag and mop the bore as clean as possible. There's no way to get 100% of the bullet fouling out because it settles in the bore's striations (machine marks). If you have been shooting lead bullets, use the same procedure, except you will need a solvent for lead. When lead fouling is extreme, the best solution is to apply a liberal amount of penetrating oil in the bore (such as Kroll) and let it work overnight. Kroll or other good penetrating oils will actually creep under the lead fouling and make it easy to remove with a bore brush. Another tip for lead fouling .... when you clean a bore, lead fouling will become shiny and will blend in with the steel in the bore, making it almost impossible to see. Wait a day or so and inspect the bore again. If you see dull gray in the bore, it's lead fouling that has oxidized and is much easier to see.

Once the bore has been thoroughly cleaned, apply a few drops of gun oil on a clean patch and mop the bore with a cleaning rod. This will leave a fine film of oil in the bore to prevent future pitting or rust.

Just a few more comments .... powder solvents don't remove bullet fouling and bullet fouling solvent don't remove powder residue. Neither provide rust or pitting protection. There are products like "CLP" that claim to "clean, lubricate, and protect" but they don't do a particularly good job of any of these tasks ... still much better than not cleaning at all. No doubt, there are hundreds of different cleaning regimens so use the one that makes you happy.