f> Blackhawk trigger creep - Ruger Forum

Ruger Forum

Blackhawk trigger creep

This is a discussion on Blackhawk trigger creep within the Gunsmithing forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Can it be fixed ?...


Go Back   Ruger Forum > Firearm Forum > Gunsmithing

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes

Old January 31st, 2016, 08:11 AM   #1
 
ratgunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: , Pennsylvania, USA.
Posts: 1,417
ratgunner is on a distinguished road
Blackhawk trigger creep

Can it be fixed ?



ratgunner is offline  
Advertisements
Old January 31st, 2016, 08:55 AM   #2
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,121
Ale-8(1) will become famous soon enough
Yes, it can be considerably improved/reduced.

Hopefully, IOWEGAN will be along to explain the process.

Ale-8(1) is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 10:09 AM   #3
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CB, IA
Posts: 11,504
Iowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to all

Awards Showcase

ratgunner,
Quote:
Can it be fixed ?
Yes.
Iowegan is online now  
 
Old January 31st, 2016, 10:26 AM   #4
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,167
Varminterror will become famous soon enoughVarminterror will become famous soon enough
Yes, but not by a kitchen table gunsmith. The sear interface must be reduced, decreasing the security of the lock work. This work must be done by a skilled smith with the proper fixtures.

It's not difficult, but the tools are expensive and the process time consuming. You'll spend far more to buy the tools then ruin a few hammers in the process than you would to pay a smith to do it for you.

Last edited by Varminterror; January 31st, 2016 at 10:30 AM.
Varminterror is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 12:08 PM   #5
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CB, IA
Posts: 11,504
Iowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to all

Awards Showcase

ratgunner, I'm famous for long winded answers so I thought I would answer your question directly for once. OK wiseass mode ended.

Varminterror brings up some good points that apply to most guns, however with Ruger New Model SAs, the only special equipment you need is a rubber band and a good ceramic sear stone. You do need some skill and experience ... always a valuable tool.

Take a look at the picture below ... I removed the internal parts by first removing the grip frame. I then inserted the hammer pivot pin in the right side, secured it in place with the right trigger guard screw, leaving most of it out. The trigger pivot pin has been reversed where the loading gate spring secures it in place with most of the pin exposed. By installing the hammer on the hammer pivot pin and the trigger on the trigger pivot pin, you have just created a perfect "sear jig".

Connect a rubber band from the hammer spur to the junction of the barrel and frame to simulate a hammer spring. Cock the hammer and simulate trigger tension by pushing the lower part of the trigger forward. You will note ... the end of the trigger extension serves as half of the sear and the notch in the hammer serves as the other half of the sear.

With the hammer cocked and motion limited to prevent cosmetic damage to the frame, slowly pull the trigger and note the spur of the hammer will move back slightly as the trigger is pulled. What this means is ... the sear notch is cut slightly under square. It also means the trigger is working against a 23 lb hammer spring so you will definitely feel trigger movement (creep). By judiciously reshaping the hammer's sear notch to exactly 90 degrees, the hammer will no longer move to the rear against spring tension and creep will mysteriously go away ... at least most of it will. If you remove too much metal and create a sear notch that is over 90 deg, you will see the hammer move forward slightly as the trigger is pulled. This is a BAD and dangerous condition but can be remedied by reshaping the sear notch back to 90 deg. There's no need to shorten the already short sear notch. Many gunsmiths do this because it is a quick fix ... but also a potentially dangerous fix. Once the sear angle is at a point where the hammer spur neither moves forward or rearward, there will be minimal friction on the sear surface, thus minimal feeling of movement (creep). If you have a muslin buffing wheel and some 500 grit compound, you can buff the tip of the trigger extension and the hammer notch (sear mating surfaces) after setting the sear angle, which will virtually eliminate all creep. BTW, doing the above procedure will lower trigger pull to about 2.5 lbs using the factory hammer and trigger springs.

Iowegan is online now  
Old January 31st, 2016, 12:38 PM   #6
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,167
Varminterror will become famous soon enoughVarminterror will become famous soon enough
Don't forget - in addition to the criticality of EXACTLY 90degree cut (0degree inclination for the sear interface), the lateral precision is also critical while resetting the sear angle, hence my assertion to use a fixture. The smith - which separates them from Joe Blow - has to produce a perfectly planar surface. That's not an easy thing to do without fixtures for someone who has limited experience with stones.

So if a guy calls up Brownells and places an order after reading a post online and their first experience with a stone is to do sear work, it's much more likely create a compound surface, curved surface, declined trigger (push off risk), angled surface (increased wear and push off risk), etc etc. - in other words, a dangerous sear - than they are to produce a perfectly planar, zero inclination, 100% contact, safe sear.

Last edited by Varminterror; January 31st, 2016 at 12:46 PM.
Varminterror is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 01:06 PM   #7
 
SPsix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: greenfield center NY
Posts: 1,212
SPsix will become famous soon enoughSPsix will become famous soon enough
This is another good step by step explanation of what you are trying to achieve. I did it and it worked great on my NM Blackhawk 357 mag.

I work as a Machinist so I have a good understanding this sort of stuff, and measuring tools. You just want to take your time and think about what you are doing if you decide to try it.

Read through steps 1,2, and 3, so you understand what are going to do. Also, I didn't use the jig they show, I did it in a small vice with flat jaws. I also did what Lowegan shows in the picture, assemble everything on the outside of the frame, with the pins. It gives you a great picture of how everything works.

Warning ! Like everyone has said, don't do this if you are not comfortable with it.


Real Guns - Improving the trigger on a Ruger Bisley
SPsix is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 01:34 PM   #8
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,167
Varminterror will become famous soon enoughVarminterror will become famous soon enough
The Real Guns link is the second half of the process I use, but it does not fix the positive inclination sear engagement Iowegan mentioned. It only reduces the sear engagement length.

I use fixtures to hold the hammer to correct the sear angle, sharpen and clean the trigger sear surface, and reduce the sear engagement length. Doing so eliminates the spring resistance issue from positive sear inclination AND reduces the actual creep.
Varminterror is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 02:02 PM   #9
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Madison, CT
Posts: 248
CtYankee is on a distinguished road
If you don't do this right you'll get a hammer that will drop if you drop the gun! And the hammer will fall if you push too hard. Don't worry, I fixed my Blackhawk, but I learned my lesson from WAY TOO MUCH trial and error. Do this job wrong and you can create a dangerous gun without accomplishing anything that you started out to do. I'm really glad that I found this forum.
CtYankee is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 02:31 PM   #10
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CB, IA
Posts: 11,504
Iowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to all

Awards Showcase

It's not brain surgery ... fairly simple but as I stated above, skill and experience are needed. The nice thing about this very simple solution is ... you can actually see how the parts are working together and the spacing for the hammer and trigger are perfect for your specific gun, whereas with a purchased jig, they don't always space out exactly right for all guns. If you take time to look and use a magnifying glass, you can actually see the sear engagement. Unless you go "over square", this is NOT a dangerous procedure ... even if the sear engagement is not perfect. If the sear angle is greater than 90 deg, all bets are off ... you can easily get "push off" or a hair trigger. Over the years, I've done a lot of Single-Sixes, Blackhawks, and Super Blackhawks using this same procedure and never had one go bad.

Funny, Varminterror mentioned all the machine shop perfection required. He should take a trip back east and show the factory how to cut a sear .... I've yet to see a factory sear where the engagement was right ... in fact they are almost always cut where just one side of the sear is making contact. I will say ... the more perfect the sear engagement, the better ... but not necessarily a lighter trigger pull or less creep. Just one last comment, as a gunsmith, the object is to make money for the business. That means finding ways that work well but don't require an excessive amount of time or specialized tools. In my case, I never had a gun returned for a faulty trigger and in fact my customers were very happy with the work and labor charges. That's what keeps them coming back and keeps the business thriving.

Edited to add: I just read the reference link in SPsix's post. No way would I follow this procedure and cut the length of the sear notch ... which is exactly what I mentioned above in post#6. Yes, shorter trigger travel means less creep but I think it is potentially dangerous and much prefer to adjust the sear angle and leave the length alone.

Last edited by Iowegan; January 31st, 2016 at 02:47 PM.
Iowegan is online now  
Old January 31st, 2016, 03:10 PM   #11
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,167
Varminterror will become famous soon enoughVarminterror will become famous soon enough
Isn't the whole point of doing trigger work to fix what they didn't do correctly at the factory?

Once my jigs were cut, the time to complete a sear job using the jigs was SHORTER than trying to free hand it.
Varminterror is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 05:36 PM   #12
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: N. Calif
Posts: 2,346
firescout will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by CtYankee View Post
If you don't do this right you'll get a hammer that will drop if you drop the gun!...
On a side note: This got me thinking about a New Model with the transfer bar. If the cocked revolver is dropped, and the hammer dislodges from the sear when the gun hits the ground, will the trigger move forward fast enough so the transfer bar drops and firing pin doesn't get struck?
firescout is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 06:09 PM   #13
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,167
Varminterror will become famous soon enoughVarminterror will become famous soon enough
Yup... That's the point.
Varminterror is offline  
Old January 31st, 2016, 06:34 PM   #14
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CB, IA
Posts: 11,504
Iowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to allIowegan is a name known to all

Awards Showcase

firescout, The gun will NOT fire. Why? The transfer bar is directly coupled to the trigger. This means the trigger must be held back fully to the rear so the transfer bar will raise high enough to cover the firing pin. Yes, the hammer will snap forward but unless it strikes the transfer bar and in turn the transfer bar strikes the firing pin ... click, no bang. I guess nothing is impossible but Ruger's transfer bar system is as close to 100% as possible when it come to NOT firing when dropped. BTW, it's not a matter of the trigger moving forward .... it never got position fully to the rear to start with or the gun would already have discharged.

Varminterror,
Quote:
Isn't the whole point of doing trigger work to fix what they didn't do correctly at the factory?
You are exactly right! After doing hundreds of Ruger SA sears, you begin to think they hired a 3rd grader on his lunch hour to cut hammer sear notches. Strange though ... if you can put up with some creep and a little more trigger pressure, even those nasty defective sears work ... which proves the point ... perfection is not required.
Iowegan is online now  
Old January 31st, 2016, 06:50 PM   #15
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,121
Ale-8(1) will become famous soon enough
How good is . . . good enough?

Ale-8(1) is offline  
Reply

  Ruger Forum > Firearm Forum > Gunsmithing


Search tags for this page

ruger american trigger creep

,

ruger bisley trigger creep adjustment

,

ruger blackhawk trigger creep

,

taking creep out of super blackhawk trigger

Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Ruger Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
P95 Trigger Creep Fix??? Mattwood440 Gunsmithing 0 June 6th, 2013 07:40 PM
SA trigger creep, liked or disliked kalifornia Gunsmithing 16 February 7th, 2013 01:52 PM
p95 sa trigger creep smokestakz Ruger Pistols 0 September 18th, 2012 11:54 AM
Single Six TRIGGER creep onehandgunner Gunsmithing 6 December 2nd, 2011 08:38 AM
P95 trigger creep? Bkat Ruger Pistols 3 November 19th, 2008 09:03 PM

Top Gun Sites Top Sites List
Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2006 - 2017 Ruger Forum. All rights reserved.
Ruger Forum is a Ruger Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent Sturm Ruger & Company Inc. of Southport, CT.