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Blackhawk trigger creep

This is a discussion on Blackhawk trigger creep within the Gunsmithing forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by Iowegan firescout, The gun will NOT fire. Why? The transfer bar is directly coupled to the trigger. This means the trigger must ...


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Old January 31st, 2016, 09:20 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
firescout, The gun will NOT fire. Why? The transfer bar is directly coupled to the trigger. This means the trigger must be held back fully to the rear so the transfer bar will raise high enough to cover the firing pin. Yes, the hammer will snap forward but unless it strikes the transfer bar and in turn the transfer bar strikes the firing pin ... click, no bang. I guess nothing is impossible but Ruger's transfer bar system is as close to 100% as possible when it come to NOT firing when dropped. BTW, it's not a matter of the trigger moving forward .... it never got position fully to the rear to start with or the gun would already have discharged...

I was pretty certain it would (not fire). I've never dropped a loaded and cocked New Model SA revolver to find out for sure, though. I know on my DA Ruger revolvers, the transfer bar rises enough to cover the firing pin when it is cocked in SA mode. But I figured that the trigger would snap forward fast enough (if the hammer slipped the sear) to sufficiently lower the transfer bar so it wouldn't be covering the firing pin when hammer came down fully against the frame.



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Old January 31st, 2016, 10:09 PM   #17
 
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If the gun shoots well, and functions safely, I would just leave it be.......

It sounds like a simplistic answer and I'm sure I'll draw some heat but my days of creating work where it isn't needed are done.....I've spent countless hours trying to "improve" guns that were just fine.

Unless you enjoy the project, and have the time, skills and tools, then have at it

This is why people pay $2,500 for Freedom Arms single actions, because they have the perfect fitting that won't be reached in a $550 Blackhawk.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 06:59 AM   #18
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ExArmy11b, I respect your opinion but just think ... there are many people willing to spend some money or do a job themselves because they WANT to, not because they need to. This has become the norm for just about any product in America every since Burger King taught us to "have it your way".
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Old February 1st, 2016, 08:49 AM   #19
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firescout View Post
On a side note: This got me thinking about a New Model with the transfer bar. If the cocked revolver is dropped, and the hammer dislodges from the sear when the gun hits the ground, will the trigger move forward fast enough so the transfer bar drops and firing pin doesn't get struck?
No, the transfer bar would not engage, but once I realized what I had done wrong I had to fix it.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 09:50 AM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by ExArmy11b View Post
If the gun shoots well, and functions safely, I would just leave it be.......

It sounds like a simplistic answer and I'm sure I'll draw some heat but my days of creating work where it isn't needed are done.....I've spent countless hours trying to "improve" guns that were just fine.

Unless you enjoy the project, and have the time, skills and tools, then have at it

This is why people pay $2,500 for Freedom Arms single actions, because they have the perfect fitting that won't be reached in a $550 Blackhawk.
Whether a guy enjoys it or wants to do it themselves is only part of the equation. A guy can put a lot less than $2,500 into a Ruger SA and end up with an action just as good as any FA I've owned.

A $600 Ruger and an $800 action job will feel as good as an FA - such has been my experience in paying to have that work done, as opposed to spending money for another M83. A guy DOES have to be willing to take feeler gauges and a range rod to the shop before they buy the donor Ruger, but we do live in the real world - FA has to live by the same functional design and same geometry by which does Ruger, so there's nothing unique inside that makes them magically and substantially better. It's just better fit out of the gate.

A guy does get what he pays for in the Freedom Revolvers, don't get me wrong, and they know they'll get that quality out of the box, WITH accompanying warranty, whereas with a rebuilt Ruger, you have no guarantees out of the box, you have to do the extra leg work, and you're actually taking any of Ruger's obligation uphold any future repair/replacement work (normally called "warranty work")... But if you're ok with all of that, a rebuilt Ruger IS cheaper than an FA.

If a guy is happy with factory Rugers, then great for him. I'm not, but I do love Ruger designs, appreciate their politics, and respect their corporate policy governance. Would you rather I, and thousands of others like me, spend our money at FA, or keep giving it to Ruger?

Last edited by Varminterror; February 1st, 2016 at 01:23 PM.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 10:05 AM   #21
 
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f a guy is happy with factory Rugers, then great for him. I'm not,
+1 . I 'used to be' fine with factory setup. But after having a complete action job done, the difference (for me) was like night and day. Now every time I pick up a factory gun and shoot it, I cringe a bit, feeling the creep, creep, creep, and the heavier (usually) trigger pull puLL PULL to boot. Unacceptable (now) .
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Old February 1st, 2016, 12:57 PM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by Varminterror View Post
...A guy does get what he pays for in the Freedom Revolvers, don't get me wrong, and they know they'll get that quality out of the box, WITH accompanying warranty, whereas with a rebuilt Ruger, you have no guarantees out of the box, you have to do the extra leg work, and you're actually VOIDING your warranty to do such action work... But if you're ok with all of that, a rebuilt Ruger IS cheaper than an FA...
Sturm, Ruger, and Co. offers no written warranty, full or limited, with their firearms.

This statement is from their website FAQ:

Why No Warranty Card Has Been Packed With Your New Ruger Firearm?
The Magnuson-Moss Act (Public Law 93-637) does not require any seller or manufacturer of a consumer product to give a written warranty. It does provide that if a written warranty is given, it must be designated as "limited" or as "full" and sets minimum standards for a "full" warranty. Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. has elected not to provide any written warranty, either "limited" or "full", rather than to attempt to comply with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act and the regulations issued thereunder. There are certain implied warranties under state law with respect to sales of consumer goods. As the extent and interpretation of these implied warranties varies from state to state, you should refer to your state statutes. Sturm, Ruger & Company wishes to assure its customers of its continued interest in providing service to owners of Ruger firearms.

Ruger Frequently Asked Questions
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Old February 1st, 2016, 01:20 PM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by firescout View Post
Sturm, Ruger, and Co. offers no written warranty, full or limited, with their firearms.

This statement is from their website FAQ:

Why No Warranty Card Has Been Packed With Your New Ruger Firearm?
The Magnuson-Moss Act (Public Law 93-637) does not require any seller or manufacturer of a consumer product to give a written warranty. It does provide that if a written warranty is given, it must be designated as "limited" or as "full" and sets minimum standards for a "full" warranty. Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. has elected not to provide any written warranty, either "limited" or "full", rather than to attempt to comply with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Act and the regulations issued thereunder. There are certain implied warranties under state law with respect to sales of consumer goods. As the extent and interpretation of these implied warranties varies from state to state, you should refer to your state statutes. Sturm, Ruger & Company wishes to assure its customers of its continued interest in providing service to owners of Ruger firearms.

Ruger Frequently Asked Questions
Worthless point of fact.

Their GUARANTEE/WARRANTY/Whatever they decide to call it, is 100% invalidated if you do an action job to your revolver. Everything you just cited is what they will NOT uphold if you send them a modified revolver for repair/replacement. They reserve the right to treat their customers fairly, and have earned (deservedly so) a great reputation for customer service.

All of that goes out the window once any work is done inside your revolver by anyone other than Ruger.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 07:19 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Varminterror View Post
...Their GUARANTEE/WARRANTY/Whatever they decide to call it, is 100% invalidated if you do an action job to your revolver. Everything you just cited is what they will NOT uphold if you send them a modified revolver for repair/replacement. They reserve the right to treat their customers fairly, and have earned (deservedly so) a great reputation for customer service.

All of that goes out the window once any work is done inside your revolver by anyone other than Ruger.
So, essentially you're saying that if you do a simple trigger 'smooth-up' job on your Ruger gun, and then down the road something like the barrel splitting from defective metallurgy occurs, Ruger will not repair the gun 'on their dime' because they see polished trigger parts?

Ruger does indicate on their website that you should remove any custom or aftermarket parts before sending a gun in for service, as they will replace them with stock parts if you don't.

Last edited by firescout; February 1st, 2016 at 07:22 PM. Reason: add a bit more info
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Old February 1st, 2016, 08:07 PM   #25
 
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So.... um... You can't send in your modified parts - what else would go wrong? It's a Ruger Single Action, there aren't that many parts... So Ruger's off of the hook for fixing any of them, because you did a polish job on all of the few internal parts. Let alone that a proper smith doesn't just dress the lockwork, but dresses the frame it rides in. Go polish the inside of one of your Ruger revolvers then see if they happen to miss it when you send it back to them for repair... All of the lockwork will get cleaned up in a proper trigger job on a Ruger SA. There's nothing left that they could repair. It'd only be replacement.

Last edited by Varminterror; February 1st, 2016 at 08:38 PM.
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Old February 2nd, 2016, 06:58 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by Varminterror View Post
...Go polish the inside of one of your Ruger revolvers then see if they happen to miss it when you send it back to them for repair... All of the lockwork will get cleaned up in a proper trigger job on a Ruger SA. There's nothing left that they could repair. It'd only be replacement.
I have no personal experience with Ruger's service department, as my four Ruger handguns have never needed factory service. Are there others' experiences of having Ruger completely replace a handgun because it was polished inside?
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Old February 2nd, 2016, 01:40 PM   #27
 
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Wow! I guess I will take it to a smith. But I'm showing him Iowagen's picture and text.
Thanks.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 12:08 PM   #28
 
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Here is a picture of my hammer/trigger engagement on my Bisley, any ideas?
[IMG]PSX_20160225_051166jpg[/IMG]The surfaces have been polished but I think the angles are wrong, what do you think? I bought it used and would really like to restore it to proper function.
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File Type: jpg PSX_20160225_050932.jpg (104.9 KB, 51 views)
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Old October 25th, 2016, 06:20 PM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
ratgunner, I'm famous for long winded answers so I thought I would answer your question directly for once. OK wiseass mode ended.

Varminterror brings up some good points that apply to most guns, however with Ruger New Model SAs, the only special equipment you need is a rubber band and a good ceramic sear stone. You do need some skill and experience ... always a valuable tool.

Take a look at the picture below ... I removed the internal parts by first removing the grip frame. I then inserted the hammer pivot pin in the right side, secured it in place with the right trigger guard screw, leaving most of it out. The trigger pivot pin has been reversed where the loading gate spring secures it in place with most of the pin exposed. By installing the hammer on the hammer pivot pin and the trigger on the trigger pivot pin, you have just created a perfect "sear jig".

Connect a rubber band from the hammer spur to the junction of the barrel and frame to simulate a hammer spring. Cock the hammer and simulate trigger tension by pushing the lower part of the trigger forward. You will note ... the end of the trigger extension serves as half of the sear and the notch in the hammer serves as the other half of the sear.

With the hammer cocked and motion limited to prevent cosmetic damage to the frame, slowly pull the trigger and note the spur of the hammer will move back slightly as the trigger is pulled. What this means is ... the sear notch is cut slightly under square. It also means the trigger is working against a 23 lb hammer spring so you will definitely feel trigger movement (creep). By judiciously reshaping the hammer's sear notch to exactly 90 degrees, the hammer will no longer move to the rear against spring tension and creep will mysteriously go away ... at least most of it will. If you remove too much metal and create a sear notch that is over 90 deg, you will see the hammer move forward slightly as the trigger is pulled. This is a BAD and dangerous condition but can be remedied by reshaping the sear notch back to 90 deg. There's no need to shorten the already short sear notch. Many gunsmiths do this because it is a quick fix ... but also a potentially dangerous fix. Once the sear angle is at a point where the hammer spur neither moves forward or rearward, there will be minimal friction on the sear surface, thus minimal feeling of movement (creep). If you have a muslin buffing wheel and some 500 grit compound, you can buff the tip of the trigger extension and the hammer notch (sear mating surfaces) after setting the sear angle, which will virtually eliminate all creep. BTW, doing the above procedure will lower trigger pull to about 2.5 lbs using the factory hammer and trigger springs.

New forum member here with questions.

When you say reshape the hammer sear notch to 90 degrees I am assuming that this is in relation to the trigger sear face as they contact by the frame pin jig method you show in the pic, is this correct or did I miss something? If so 90 degrees in relation to what?

Is there a method you recommend for measuring the hammer sear notch angle that is workable without having to invest in a tool that will most likely be used only once or twice? Or is the best course of action to reshape/reassemble, reshape/reassemble etc until the desired trigger pull weight is reached?

I do have a very good set of stones up to 5000 grit that I use for sharpening my knives and have used them so far to polish the important contact surfaces, except the hammer sear notch, and reduced my trigger pull weight from 4 1/2 to 4 lb and have significantly smoothed it up. I am not shooting for 2 1/2 lb but I think right now I would like to get to a 3 lb pull.

Hope my questions make sense.
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Old October 27th, 2016, 06:19 PM   #30
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Highway41, Your question makes perfect sense. You don't need any fancy tools or measuring devices .... just good eyes. When you use the above "jig", pull the trigger very slowly and watch the hammer spur, it should not move forward or rearward. This means the sear angle is at 90 deg. Almost always you will see the hammer move back just a tad. This means the sear is less than 90 deg where the trigger is working against the hammer spring, which not only increases trigger pull ... it also increases creep. Although a good sear squaring jig is nice to have, a handheld stone with a nice 90 deg edge will do the job. Yes, you do need to hone then test multiple times but with the jig, it's very easy to remove and replace the hammer. Once the sear is squared, you can reassemble the gun. The steel in the hammer is harder than woodpecker lips so it does take a considerable amount of honing to square up the sear.

I guess I've probably done a couple hundred Ruger SAs and when the sear is nice and square, trigger pull always is 2.5~3 lb with the factory hammer spring installed. I usually reshape the trigger spring a little by bending both legs up. You can buff the sear notch and trigger sear with a muslin buffing wheel and 500 grit compound. This will take trigger pull down to 2~2.5 lb and virtually remove all creep. If you buy a Wolf reduced power trigger spring, you can easily get 1.5~2 lb. Personally, I like 2.5~3 lb with no creep.
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