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Finally, the Army Has Chosen a Pistol.

This is a discussion on Finally, the Army Has Chosen a Pistol. within the Gun Stories forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by Sr40ken Then why didn't they? What kept them from getting the contracts? No suppositions. The 320 has features the other don't. Like ...


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Old January 20th, 2017, 05:21 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by Sr40ken View Post
Then why didn't they? What kept them from getting the contracts? No suppositions. The 320 has features the other don't. Like Terry said, it still brings American jobs. And not know the finances of Sig who knows how the profits flow. And being a Navair vet considering the crap Navair is taking they probably should get foreign aircraft.
Personally I would love to have an American pistol that meets my requirement but there are none, may be that way for the Army. The Seal commander has already purchased Glock 19 for them as has the Marine specops commander.
because there have been some politicians who make more money by giving the business to a foreign company? Havent you noticed?

DRAIN THE SWAMP!



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Old January 20th, 2017, 05:51 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by ronzonie View Post
because there have been some politicians who make more money by giving the business to a foreign company? Havent you noticed?

DRAIN THE SWAMP!
With the ridiculous over site on this project I would have to say no cigar. I don't own a Glock put I would give em Glock 19s. You really should back away from the evil big business mantra
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Old January 20th, 2017, 07:41 PM   #18
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The military can "award" the contract to anyone they want. CONGRESS and the DOD STILL needs to approve and sign off on it.

And that DID NOT happen since yesterday.

The whole thing may be a mute point when they look at the price.

This aint over just quite yet.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 11:10 PM   #19
 
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What US manufacturer was able to field a pistol with the Army's requirements? I think the only ones that could were Ruger and S&W. Who else is there?

Take a RAP, an equivalent S&W (I'm not up on the models), and any other US semi-auto that may meet the requirements (don't think there were any), and put them up against a Sig and compare them, quality-wise...

I don't think they'll compare. I love my Rugers and am very loyal to the brand, but they don't compare to a Sig...

If the decision was made to suggest "second-best" due to political reasons, wouldn't there be some sort of backlash, when the intent is to provide the best tools for our soldiers?

It's what built our Nation and what makes it great...Captalism. Provide a superior product and meet the demand, or get skipped over by a supplier who does...foreign or domestic.

That being said, I do see your point and do agree with you that it's unfortunate.

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I'm confident that if an American company really wanted to make a pistol suitable for our Armed Forces and had Govt. input and financial incentives they could do so, and at a better price then the expensive German owned Sig corporation.

America needs to get into the business of designing and making quality firearms again. The main reason the Army is probably going with the Sig is because it is steel frame, which should tell you what they think about the "wonders" of polymer a.k.a. plastic. How many comparable American steel frame models from a major firearms producer with similar features as the Sig P320 are there? Answer? None... they are all polymer frame models.

The only serious American full size steel frame semi-auto designs being produced in America today are the ubiquitous 1911's, and chances are the military isn't going to go back to that, nor should they.

Last edited by Wheelygunner; January 20th, 2017 at 11:25 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 03:10 AM   #20
 
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Could care less where it's from myself. I'd want the better product being used not just it being chosen because it's made by a US based company. Just because it's made here doesn't mean it's the best.


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The main reason the Army is probably going with the Sig is because it is steel frame, which should tell you what they think about the "wonders" of polymer a.k.a. plastic. How many comparable American steel frame models from a major firearms producer with similar features as the Sig P320 are there? Answer? None... they are all polymer frame models.

That would be specified in the contract details set in place 10 years ago. But perhaps you're on to something. After all, look at all the issues Glock, HK, Sig, S&W, Springfield, and Ruger have had with their polymer frames. .

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Old January 21st, 2017, 07:08 AM   #21
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How many of you complaining about American Headquartered, American designed and American made with American workers Sig Sauer own Beretta, Browning, CZ, Tikka, HK, Winchester, Taurus, Rossi, Springfield or Glock. The list is longer but you get the picture. How many 100% American companies make a pistol that would qualify for the military specs???

The goal is to get the best possible firearm in the hands of our troops. Not sure why it took 10 years of testing but after reading this thread I'm starting to get the picture.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 08:02 AM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by sr40ken View Post
with the ridiculous over site on this project i would have to say no cigar. I don't own a glock put i would give em glock 19s. You really should back away from the evil big business mantra
in your opinion
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Old January 21st, 2017, 11:44 AM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by terry_p View Post
How many of you complaining about American Headquartered, American designed and American made with American workers Sig Sauer own Beretta, Browning, CZ, Tikka, HK, Winchester, Taurus, Rossi, Springfield or Glock. The list is longer but you get the picture. How many 100% American companies make a pistol that would qualify for the military specs???

The goal is to get the best possible firearm in the hands of our troops. Not sure why it took 10 years of testing but after reading this thread I'm starting to get the picture.
What I don't understand is why they can't find an American made pistol designed by an American company, yet they've managed to have their rifles and a whole host of other weapons made and designed by US companies. This is a pistol for crying out loud, they are relatively simple devices.

If a US firearms manufacturer want to get a contract with the military for a pistol, then they need to design and produce a modern one with a steel frame. That should've become blindingly obvious by now.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 12:20 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Wheelygunner View Post
...America needs to get into the business of designing and making quality firearms again...
American firearms manufacturers ARE designing and making many quality firearms today. Is it your opinion that the only quality semi-auto pistol out there is the one that 'won' this particular military selection process? Many U.S. firearms manufacturers have plenty of sales in the civilian and law enforcement market, and could care less about fulfilling some U.S. military contract.

In the mid 1980s, I remember quite a few 'gun people' (mostly civilian) getting all whiney about an 'Italian' 9mm pistol replacing the 1911 .45. So, 30-plus years later, I don't see the Beretta 92 being the most popular pistol in the U.S. And during those years, a number of U.S. military forces equipped themselves with a significant amount of pistols OTHER than the Beretta M9. The 1911 is still immensely popular (probably even more so than three decades ago) in the civilian world, and to a lesser degree in the law enforcement community.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 12:29 PM   #25
 
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American firearms manufacturers ARE designing and making many quality firearms today. Is it your opinion that the only quality semi-auto pistol out there is the one that 'won' this particular military selection process? Many U.S. firearms manufacturers have plenty of sales in the civilian and law enforcement market, and could care less about fulfilling some U.S. military contract.

In the mid 1980s, I remember quite a few 'gun people' (mostly civilian) getting all whiney about an 'Italian' 9mm pistol replacing the 1911 .45. So, 30-plus years later, I don't see the Beretta 92 being the most popular pistol in the U.S. And during those years, a number of U.S. military forces equipped themselves with a significant amount of pistols OTHER than the Beretta M9. The 1911 is still immensely popular (probably even more so than three decades ago) in the civilian world, and to a lesser degree in the law enforcement community.
That's not at all what I said, I am opposed to them choosing the Sig over an American made design. I believe the main reason why they went with the Sig is because there are no comparable pistols designed and produced by a US company with the similar features and reliability that has a steel frame. If you know of one, please do tell us. This is what I meant by "America needs to get serious again about making pistols". The US Army doesn't like the polymer wonders that they keep pushing on us and there stands to be a good reason for it.

The Army doesn't go on opinions or by what's popular or what the market is pushing but on what works and can stand up to their rigorous demands for modern times, and modern times still prefers pistols with steel frames. The Army has more resources to conduct studies and field testing then anyone, so I tend to trust their conclusions.

The 1911 wasn't working for them anymore due to it's low ammo capacity and less then stellar reliability compared to more modern designs so they switched to the Beretta M9. Now that pistol is no longer working for them due to the relatively low powered 9mm round so they are making the switch again (although it always takes them a very long time to do so). Yes, there are certain special elements of the armed forces and LEO's that can still carry the 1911 if they wish but the vast majority do not. There are probably more LEO's still carrying revolvers then 1911's.

Last edited by Wheelygunner; January 21st, 2017 at 12:49 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 12:37 PM   #26
 
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I'm confident.
.


America needs to get into the business of designing and making quality firearms again. The main reason the Army is probably going with the Sig is because it is steel frame, which should tell you what they think about the "wonders" of polymer a.k.a. plastic. How many comparable American steel frame models from a major firearms producer with similar features as the Sig P320 are there? Answer? None... they are all polymer frame models.

The only serious American full size steel frame semi-auto designs being produced in America today are the ubiquitous 1911's, and chances are the military isn't going to go back to that, nor should they.
You need to take a closer look at how the 320 is built. It has a steel subframe only.

Most other polymer pistols also have steel or some other metal subframe.

Ruger's American pistol is virtually the same type of design. It also has a subframe that can be dropped into a different sized (for different sized hands) polymer handgrip/trigger guard, etc part.

You can even buy extra polymer interchangeable grip modules.

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/media.../grip-mods.jpg

.

Last edited by mndoggie; January 21st, 2017 at 12:44 PM.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 12:46 PM   #27
 
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That's not at all what I said, I am opposed to them choosing the Sig over an American made design. I believe the main reason why they went with the Sig is because there are no comparable pistols designed and produced by a US company with the similar features and reliability that has a steel frame. If you know of one, please do tell us.

This is what I meant by "America needs to get serious again about making pistols". The US Army doesn't like the polymer wonders that they keep pushing on us and there stands to be a good reason for it.
The Ruger American Pistol would be a good example.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 12:52 PM   #28
 
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The Ruger American Pistol would be a good example.
Except that the Ruger American Pistol DOES NOT have a steel frame. Hello?
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Old January 21st, 2017, 12:57 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by HBK View Post
I hope it will be in 45acp or 40S&W caliber instead of the wimpy 9mm. The military is limited to full metal jacket hardball ammo and the 9mm is not a good man stopper with that type of ammo.

Just curious if your statement based on first hand experience? Would you volunteer to be shot with 9mm hardball to prove that it's wimpy and not a man stopper? I don't think I would.
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Mogg2112 I am a retired LEO with 30 years experience. 8 years as Det. Sgt. investigating major crimes including homicides. was also firearms instructor and Dept. armor for Dept. Berretta 94 issued handguns. During that time I have examined over 300 reports of police shootings thoughout the U.S.
And I can say that the 9mm hardball round has a very poor reputation for stopping power. The object of a defensive round is to stop the suspect's aggression as fast as possible, hopefully with one round. I read too many reports where the 9mm hardball and even some 9mm HP ammo failed to do that and the suspect was able to run off or even worse shoot back . Numerous cases had the suspect dying from a fatal hit, but his aggression was not stopped for a short period of time.
The 9mm hardball is very close to the RN 38 cal the military used before adopting the 45acp. The reason for going to the 45acp was the fact the 38 RN ammo proved terrible at stopping the Jihad attacks our troops encountered in the Philippine Islands.
Recent improvements in 9mm HP ammo has improved their stopping power, but our military are restricted from using that ammo and use RN hardball ammo.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 01:02 PM   #30
 
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Except that the Ruger American Pistol DOES NOT have a steel frame. Hello?
Really??

Please do some homework.

Its not uncommon for modern polymer-framed pistols to use molded-in sheet metal or MIM armatures to support the slide assembly as it cycles. Ruger opted to take a page from the SIG Sauer playbook and do away with multi-piece supports in favor of a single-piece chassis. CNC machined from stainless steel and then nitride treated, the ridged chassis features 1.5 integral front and rear slide rails while providing total support for the firing mechanism. This means all of the major moving components of the pistol are sliding against steel support surfaces, not the polymer of the frame. The chassis is the serial numbered component of the gun with the number visible just under the back end of the slide.


https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...erican-pistol/
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