Ruger Forum

ChrisLCR · October 25th, 2012, 06:42 PM

I'm reading a recent gun magazine where the editor, in replying to a letter, and I quote, said: "Since that massacre in the movie house in CO, not a day has gone by when I haven't wished I'd been inside, armed, to fight back. And I know the vast majority of you (CCW Holders) feel the same way". It got me thinking, and from everything I know that was a REALLY losing situation to be in.

From what I understand, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the killer, James Holmes, used a 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle with a 100-round drum magazine, and a Glock 22 handgun. He also had on a gas mask, a load-bearing vest, a ballistic helmet, bullet-resistant leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector and tactical gloves. He also allegedly threw gas or smoke bombs, partially obscuring the audience members' vision, making their throats and skin itch, and causing eye irritation.

Knowing what we now know in hindsight, do you feel you "wished you could have been there to fight back?" First of all, it was a very dark theater, you may have been enthralled by the movie and taken totally by surprise, and there was smoke and gas on top of that. If you were able to get off any shots at all you would have had to hope for a facial, which probably would have been the only effective one. This is all assuming you didn't accidentally shoot any of the innocent people running around the dark panicking in the process, which could have very well been possible in this scenario.

Let's say there was more then one CCW holder in the theater. It's dark, smokey, gassy, people are running around in a panic, and some guy next to you starts shooting a big .45acp or something at the general direction of the shooter also, you being under severe anxiety already, and not sure if those shots are coming from the shooter or a possible second shooter, turn around and shoot the good CCW guy, or he might do the same to you.

To answer the editors comments, no... hell no... I sure DON'T wish I was there to fight back. I don't feel confident I could have done much good with my little LCR in that situation, or any other handgun for that matter. Assuming I had no easy way of escaping, was able to still see, and wasn't one of the first ones shot, I probably would have unloaded my gun as fast as possible at the obscured shape of the shooter, and big time luck would have had to have been on my side for a stopping hit.

I don't want to sound like some anti-gun liberal, but in this scenario the killer clearly had a huge advantage, and a few CCW holders being there may have made things worse. As a matter of fact, I'm amazed things didn't turn out much worse and that Holmes gave himself up so easily. He was probably equipped to take out half the police force outside the theater if he wanted to.

My advice? Don't go to see some dark, violent film in a big city with people dressed up in costumes pass midnight, and don't listen to gun writers with delusions of grandeur. There isn't much good that can come out of either one.

brimic · October 25th, 2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

From what I understand, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the killer, James Holmes, used a 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle with a 100-round drum magazine, and a Glock 22 handgun. He also had on a gas mask, a load-bearing vest, a ballistic helmet, bullet-resistant leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector and tactical gloves. He also allegedly threw gas or smoke bombs, partially obscuring the audience members' vision, making their throats and skin itch, and causing eye irritation.

He also most likely had zero training....

Someone with a little training or at the very minimum, the right mindset could have stopped him cold with nothing more than a swiss army knife if they were able to get into his blind spot....
Not second guessing the people who were there, but the 'killer instict' is pretty much gone from American society with the exception of combat veterans and police.

ColoradoChris · October 25th, 2012, 07:05 PM

I clearly hope that I never have to be in that situation but I will tell you this. I won't sit by and wait for some sick bastard to put a hole in someone I care about.

The odds that I could have gotten a kill shot with my LCR 357 would be pretty slim as he had body armour but the hope would be that since he was a freakin' coward to attack helpless people he would be shocked by someone fighting back. I would love to have a few fellow CCW holders by my side in that situation.

If I'm going down... I'm doing it fighting back against scum like that.

moakes58 · October 25th, 2012, 07:09 PM

It's possible know one could could have done anything, with a smoke clouding everything & panic everywhere. It would have been nice to have the option/chance to try. It also quite possible that 1 shot to the helmet/body could have made that mentally I'll kid piss himself & drop his gun. It's a lot different when someone is shooting back. How many people would hunt if the deer had guns?

ChrisLCR · October 25th, 2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brimic

He also most likely had zero training....

Someone with a little training or at the very minimum, the right mindset could have stopped him cold with nothing more than a swiss army knife if they were able to get into his blind spot....
Not second guessing the people who were there, but the 'killer instict' is pretty much gone from American society with the exception of combat veterans and police.

So someone with just a "little training" and a Swiss Army Knife could take out a person with "zero training" fully encased in body armor, all those big time guns, gas, with total element of surprise etc.?

I'm sorry Sir, but I must strongly disagree. However mentally ill he may have been, he had enough knowledge and/or training to choose his gear and weapons very well, not to mention building a booby-trap bomb in his apartment. At least enough not to be concerned about a guy with a Swiss Army Knife.

ARP · October 25th, 2012, 07:22 PM

I honestly think it probably would come down to where you were seated when the Stuff happened. Mid theater as to where the shooter was located? You as the CCW shooter most likely would have hit someone getting up to escape. Sitting close by to his left or right and providing you KNEW what was going on when the Stuff happened vs. "is this part of the movie"? Again you have to be questioning is this for real? Anyone have or seen a time line as to how long this went on? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? After his weapon with the drum jammed, he then went to the pistol or the shotgun?

I don't think it is plausible for any CCW person to process what was happening, in the dark, and decide this was real and I need to put this to an end. And then get the shot off w/o hitting a bystander.

ColoradoChris · October 25th, 2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moakes58

It's possible know one could could have done anything, with a smoke clouding everything & panic everywhere. It would have been nice to have the option/chance to try. It also quite possible that 1 shot to the helmet/body could have made that mentally I'll kid piss himself & drop his gun. It's a lot different when someone is shooting back. How many people would hunt if the deer had guns?

Agreed... You didn't see the little f%&# shooting up a police station, did ya? The little coward wanted a shooting gallery.

BearcatShack · October 25th, 2012, 07:32 PM

He didn't have eyes behind him.

ChrisLCR · October 25th, 2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BearcatShack

He didn't have eyes behind him.

He came in through the emergency exit doors, which were most likely towards the front of the audience. No one behind him to worry about.

Dawgface · October 25th, 2012, 07:39 PM

If I was there w/my CCW I would be dead now.....not knowing he was armored I would have got myself killed shooting w/my LC9 w/CT laser at his center mass, period.

brimic · October 25th, 2012, 07:56 PM

Quote:

So someone with just a "little training" and a Swiss Army Knife could take out a person with "zero training" fully encased in body armor, all those big time guns, gas, with total element of surprise etc.?

I'm sorry Sir, but I must strongly disagree. However mentally ill he may have been, he had enough knowledge and/or training to choose his gear and weapons very well, not to mention building a booby-trap bomb in his apartment. At least enough not to be concerned about a guy with a Swiss Army Knife.

-He weighed what? 140-150lbs? Tip the turtle on its back and its not going -anywhere, better yet hit him hard, tackle him- someone my size could probably break a few of his bones on impact. Once he's on the ground you can flip out SAK and gut him until he stops twitching- or just pop it through his windpipe and start sawing, its dirty work but I guarantee he won't be very dangerous for much longer.
-gas mask means no peripheral vision- Iwear them for work all the time, you have to be more careful not to bang your head against things overhead...
-chuck a soda at him, there are going to be plenty nearby- getting soda on his face shield will blind him temperarily, maybe enough time to close on him.

A gun, body armor, a bomb, or a knife is not by far the most dangerous weapon every individual possesses.

kingpins9 · October 25th, 2012, 07:57 PM

Yes. He was by himself. It would only have taken one or 2 hits to put him down.

But since the theater banned weapons..........

Sightngrl · October 25th, 2012, 08:07 PM

Realistically, once it sunk in that shtf, I could see myself trying to leave or take cover if I couldn't leave. I can't see myself moving closer to him or confronting him, and only shooting if the BG came close to me as a direct one on one threat. That would force me to shoot to survive, as a last ditch effort. I hope it would catch him off guard and allow me some kind of small advantage. But I would shoot him with all I had, I would not go down without a fight.

dubshooter · October 25th, 2012, 08:09 PM

He had on an LBV... not body armor.

LBV won't stop anything except a mosquito.

Rule of firearm safety, KNOW YOUR TARGET: A muzzle flash is not knowing your target, but is a target indicator. You do not shoot at indicators. You do not shoot until you know your target.

"but in this scenario the killer clearly had a huge advantage"

The attacker always has the initial advantage.

You cannot say what you would or would not have done in any given situation. The only thing you can do is gather as much information as you can and learn, train and plan for anything that might happen afterwards.

Pat-inCO · October 25th, 2012, 08:17 PM

I am of the opinion that anyone that beats their chest and says how he could have "fixed it" has no business carrying concealed. After all, they obviously have no brain.