Ruger Forum

brimic · October 25th, 2012, 08:19 PM

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You cannot say what you would or would not have done in any given situation. The only thing you can do is gather as much information as you can and learn, train and plan for anything that might happen afterwards.

Yes.
But.
Any action is better than no action.
If your enemy has to react to your action instead of the other way around, you are ahead of him in the OODA loop. There is no way to determine if its going to be enough of an advantage, but its more of an advantage than sitting tight and getting killed.

brimic · October 25th, 2012, 08:25 PM

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I am of the opinion that anyone that beats their chest and says how he could have "fixed it" has no business carrying concealed. After all, they obviously have no brain.

Could a, would a, should a, speculation is worthless.

Thanks for your input.
Try to think through these things, run them over and over in your mind, I beg you. You might find yourself in a life or death situation someday and not have your favorite tool available on your belt.
It might save you some day instead of you getting shot while "omg omg I can't believe this is happening" is going through your mind.

ChrisLCR · October 25th, 2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brimic

Yes.
But.
Any action is better than no action.
If your enemy has to react to your action instead of the other way around, you are ahead of him in the OODA loop. There is no way to determine if its going to be enough of an advantage, but its more of an advantage than sitting tight and getting killed.

Agreed! There may have not been much a CCW holder could have done in that situation, but we all know what happens when nobody is armed. The killer shoots indiscriminately, and people die. Plain and simple.

My point was that nobody should have any pretenses on being the hero, wishing they were there and thinking they could have taken this guy out.

Richie SR9 · October 25th, 2012, 08:32 PM

Do you think you could have done any good in the Aurora Shootings?

As stated, alot of what if's. If I had the misfortunate of being one of the first people that SOB coward first started unloading on, then no I probably wouldn't "have done any good". If I was with a loved one my first instinct would be to shield them as many people did. You can go on and on about the smoke, confusion, possibly shooting an innocent bystander or being shot by another CCW, but I'll say this: any bullets /resistence I had an oppurtunity to send his way would "have done good". I won't assume that I could have taken him out had only I been there, but I won't assume that the opportunity was non existent either. Do I wish I had been there as the editor you've quoted said? Hell no!

This question irks me.

BearcatShack · October 25th, 2012, 08:32 PM

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Originally Posted by ChrisLCR

He came in through the emergency exit doors, which were most likely towards the front of the audience. No one behind him to worry about.

Except for me

jaxrider14 · October 25th, 2012, 08:32 PM

Realistically I doubt I would gotten a good shot at him in all that smoke and chaos.
And trying to move toward him would have been suicidal as he did have a lot of firepower.

He may not have been well trained, but crazy people often become super strong, feel little pain, and will keep coming if hit, even multiple times.

Best I could have hoped for was to return fire from a somewhat protected location and keep him busy and off balance. Maybe give a few more people a chance to get out.

bearcatter · October 26th, 2012, 07:57 AM

There are a lot of "ifs". I do think that had I been there, able to CCW and been presented with a clear shot, I would have done some good. Shortened his victim list, at least.

Llano Dan · October 26th, 2012, 10:37 AM

My initial thought on the comment was to leave it alone, but no I am going to put my two cents in. Anyone who wants to be in a gun fight, should have their head examined. Or has never been shot at or returned fire. That night in Colorado was absolute panic and fear for many and the end of their life for others, not some computer game or TV show. My advice is always carry, train hard, seek peace, and pray for Divine Guidance.

bulldog1946 · October 26th, 2012, 11:12 AM

I totaly agree with you! As a vet of the spray&pray generation,I have seen what happens in a firefight,men shooting at anything that moves.In fact,that was the cause of most Friendly Fire deaths. So carry your weapon,train to use it,be sure of your target,and pray your never in that situation.

harryball · October 26th, 2012, 11:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Dawgface

If I was there w/my CCW I would be dead now.....not knowing he was armored I would have got myself killed shooting w/my LC9 w/CT laser at his center mass, period.

I don't like speculating on such things. But don't sell out on the idea you'd have no effect. Even in body armor you have to train to take a hit and keep going. I doubt he even knew that. Ask an officer that's been hit before "did it hurt?" It is possible he would have dropped like a rock and surrendered after one good thwack in the chest. You may also have missed and hit him in the head, or the hand.

Yiogo · October 26th, 2012, 11:20 AM

I doubt I could have done anything unless I had my 1911 which I probably would not have. Now, if several people fired back at him that may have been a different story. Yiogo

mhuxtable · October 26th, 2012, 12:08 PM

People saying that could have somehow gotten behind him or tackled him seem a bit delusional. With a gas filled, panicked and full movie theatre, the chances of actually getting close enough to touch the guy is slim. With the amount of fire power he had, getting that close unharmed would be near impossible.

Shooting at him in a panicked theatre would only aggravate the situation..people would assume you're a shooter as well, plus the likelihood you'd hit an innocent is very high.

It's tragic and frustrating and awful, but that situation is not a time to pretend to play hero...it's a time to get out quickly and use your firearm if he gets close enough to see and shoot safely.

Con 43 · October 26th, 2012, 12:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Yiogo

I doubt I could have done anything unless I had my 1911 which I probably would not have. Now, if several people fired back at him that may have been a different story. Yiogo

Yes it would of been a different story. It would of become a complete cluster hump

with him shooting at anything and other people trying to shoot him not a good scenario anyway you look at it. The chances of someone who has not been trained and has not experienced this type of a situation reacting in a positive manner is remote at best. JMO

MisterFelixLC9 · October 26th, 2012, 12:17 PM

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Originally Posted by ChrisLCR

I'm reading a recent gun magazine where the editor, in replying to a letter, and I quote, said: "Since that massacre in the movie house in CO, not a day has gone by when I haven't wished I'd been inside, armed, to fight back. And I know the vast majority of you (CCW Holders) feel the same way". It got me thinking, and from everything I know that was a REALLY losing situation to be in.

From what I understand, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the killer, James Holmes, used a 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun, a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle with a 100-round drum magazine, and a Glock 22 handgun. He also had on a gas mask, a load-bearing vest, a ballistic helmet, bullet-resistant leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector and tactical gloves. He also allegedly threw gas or smoke bombs, partially obscuring the audience members' vision, making their throats and skin itch, and causing eye irritation.

Knowing what we now know in hindsight, do you feel you "wished you could have been there to fight back?" First of all, it was a very dark theater, you may have been enthralled by the movie and taken totally by surprise, and there was smoke and gas on top of that. If you were able to get off any shots at all you would have had to hope for a facial, which probably would have been the only effective one. This is all assuming you didn't accidentally shoot any of the innocent people running around the dark panicking in the process, which could have very well been possible in this scenario.

Let's say there was more then one CCW holder in the theater. It's dark, smokey, gassy, people are running around in a panic, and some guy next to you starts shooting a big .45acp or something at the general direction of the shooter also, you being under severe anxiety already, and not sure if those shots are coming from the shooter or a possible second shooter, turn around and shoot the good CCW guy, or he might do the same to you.

To answer the editors comments, no... hell no... I sure DON'T wish I was there to fight back. I don't feel confident I could have done much good with my little LCR in that situation, or any other handgun for that matter. Assuming I had no easy way of escaping, was able to still see, and wasn't one of the first ones shot, I probably would have unloaded my gun as fast as possible at the obscured shape of the shooter, and big time luck would have had to have been on my side for a stopping hit.

I don't want to sound like some anti-gun liberal, but in this scenario the killer clearly had a huge advantage, and a few CCW holders being there may have made things worse. As a matter of fact, I'm amazed things didn't turn out much worse and that Holmes gave himself up so easily. He was probably equipped to take out half the police force outside the theater if he wanted to.

My advice? Don't go to see some dark, violent film in a big city with people dressed up in costumes pass midnight, and don't listen to gun writers with delusions of grandeur. There isn't much good that can come out of either one.

Imagine how many more could have been injured or killed if crossfire starts up -- remember that bullets were entering the adjacent theater as well. Appropriate situational awareness is practically impossible in that context.

I suppose I would draw my weapon and defend myself out of instinct but would that be good judgment? Doubtful. Would it have mattered, given these circumstances? Not likely.

brimic · October 26th, 2012, 12:38 PM

Humans are naturally a prey animal.

Ever seen a rabbit being taken by an owl or a sheep by a big cat? The prey animal doesn't fight, it simply goes into a limp shock state- its their only defense system against the coming death because they somehow 'know' that fighting isn't going to work. In other cases, if a predator approaches a group of humans, they stampede- just like plains animals. When cornered, they go into the 'shock' state.
This can be illustrated over and over again in history.
How many countless men quietly lined up in front of pits to be summarily beheaded or shot without so much as trying to put up a fight over the thousands of years?

Fortunately for many species, there are a few that refuse to simply give in- sometimes its a ram that headbuts a cougar off a cliff, or a human who picks up the nearest rock and starts bashing whatever is in reach.

The excuse of 'can't, won't, or too hopelessly outmatched' is the speak of the prey animal.

Attacking the character of the people who bring up possible solutions or actions is not productive.