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Carrying with an Empty Chamber Cost Two Lives

This is a discussion on Carrying with an Empty Chamber Cost Two Lives within the CCW forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Reminds me of an old bluegrass song that says, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die". Being right with God and ...


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Old April 10th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #46
 
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Reminds me of an old bluegrass song that says, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die". Being right with God and ready to go needs to be our main priority in life, but we don't have to be in a hurry to make the trip.

Good quote, and very true. When it's my turn I just hope it doesn't hurt.



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Old April 10th, 2017, 06:33 AM   #47
 
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Yep, I agree with you. I'm no great fan of pain.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 09:46 AM   #48
 
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I didn't want to jump into this thread because it definitely has become "spirited". But here I go. First & foremost from my perspective this man didn't get himself & his son killed. His actions did contribute to losing his life ,yes, but the reason he died is because some sociopath along with another decide to rob him and his store.
The fact that they unloaded 16 rounds into his lifeless body tells me everything I need to know. They were hell bent on having the excuse to take a life & would have found it one way or another.
For most of us we are already at a disadvantage when we encourage any situation involving defending ourselves or others. We respect life! Unless you've trained as a special ops personnel, those seconds or fractions of seconds, were we are assenting the idea that we are going to most likely take another persons life will always cost us.
The best that we can do is to try to incorporate as much training and "takeaways" from a situation like this.But I don't see any gain from blaming the victim for what should never have occurred in a "civilized society".
May they rest in Peace.

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Old April 10th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #49
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Lot of speculation here. This guy drew on a loaded gun, so the odds were stacked against him big time at that point. The situation might have ended the same way if he had a loaded chamber. Or... maybe not.

It's possible the perps wouldn't have killed them if the shop owner hadn't drawn a firearm. Or... the perps may well have murdered them anyway. That happens a lot nowadays.

It's impossible to say at this point. And it's important to recognize that there is such a thing as a no-win situation sometimes, unless you're willing to be pointing a gun at every customer who walks into your convenience store.

I'm willing to bet the only decision point that might have saved this guy occurred before this footage, when people were running toward the entrance of his business with guns drawn. That is the time to draw your weapon. Not thirty seconds later. I think situational awareness may often be the only way to avoid getting in a "no win" scenario.

I'm not advocating for an unloaded chamber. I am saying that situational awareness and identifying a threat ten seconds earlier might have reversed the outcome of this more than the carry condition of the weapon.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 02:18 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon07 View Post
I didn't want to jump into this thread because it definitely has become "spirited". But here I go. First & foremost from my perspective this man didn't get himself & his son killed. His actions did contribute to losing his life ,yes, but the reason he died is because some sociopath along with another decide to rob him and his store.
The fact that they unloaded 16 rounds into his lifeless body tells me everything I need to know. They were hell bent on having the excuse to take a life & would have found it one way or another.
For most of us we are already at a disadvantage when we encourage any situation involving defending ourselves or others. We respect life! Unless you've trained as a special ops personnel, those seconds or fractions of seconds, were we are assenting the idea that we are going to most likely take another persons life will always cost us.
The best that we can do is to try to incorporate as much training and "takeaways" from a situation like this.But I don't see any gain from blaming the victim for what should never have occurred in a "civilized society".
May they rest in Peace.

Deacon Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeralCatKillr View Post
Lot of speculation here. This guy drew on a loaded gun, so the odds were stacked against him big time at that point. The situation might have ended the same way if he had a loaded chamber. Or... maybe not.

It's possible the perps wouldn't have killed them if the shop owner hadn't drawn a firearm. Or... the perps may well have murdered them anyway. That happens a lot nowadays.

It's impossible to say at this point. And it's important to recognize that there is such a thing as a no-win situation sometimes, unless you're willing to be pointing a gun at every customer who walks into your convenience store.

I'm willing to bet the only decision point that might have saved this guy occurred before this footage, when people were running toward the entrance of his business with guns drawn. That is the time to draw your weapon. Not thirty seconds later. I think situational awareness may often be the only way to avoid getting in a "no win" scenario.

I'm not advocating for an unloaded chamber. I am saying that situational awareness and identifying a threat ten seconds earlier might have reversed the outcome of this more than the carry condition of the weapon.
Gentlemen ... Thank you for the well reasoned points of view and taking the time to add to this thread
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Old April 10th, 2017, 07:12 PM   #51
 
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I am new to concealed carry. For this reason I have been carrying without one in the chamber. However, at home when practicing I am training to pull while taking the safety off as I do intend to carry with one in the chamber. I am feeling more.confident that I can do it in one fluid motion. Feel bad for this man abd his son fir sure.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 01:19 AM   #52
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Well, this thread and the video have done it for me. I'm trading my Glock 42 tomorrow because I don't trust me, with it, with a round in the chamber. This is nothing against Glock's at all - just my choice. LGS offered me $375 which is pretty good I think - against the $525 for a pretty clean S&W 640. Sorry, I know this is Ruger Forum, but I like the DAO on the S&W and it's lighter than my 2-inch SP-101's. Getting back to the round in the chamber, I remember getting in the car a couple of days ago with the G42 in my vest pocket. I sat in the car while it was warming up and looked down at it - it was pointing down and directly at the center of my right leg (with maybe a smidge of tummy in-between ... ). Sure, the S&W will probably point that way too - but I am much, much more confident that it won't put a nasty hole in my leg when I don't want it to. Back to the man and his son, another sad part of the story is I bet the shooter has a long rap sheet - but the judicial system keeps putting these folks back out on the street.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 01:47 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwes40 View Post
I am new to concealed carry. For this reason I have been carrying without one in the chamber. However, at home when practicing I am training to pull while taking the safety off as I do intend to carry with one in the chamber. I am feeling more.confident that I can do it in one fluid motion. Feel bad for this man abd his son fir sure.
It takes time (at least it did for me) to get completely comfortable with having one in the chamber, and IMHO daily carry/practice are the keys to getting there

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJammy View Post
Well, this thread and the video have done it for me. I'm trading my Glock 42 tomorrow because I don't trust me, with it, with a round in the chamber.
Glad to hear that the conversation helped you sort it out. Congrats on your new 640
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Old April 11th, 2017, 04:21 AM   #54
 
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Very sobering video, reminds me to stay prepared, which includes the following for me.
1) Spiritually Prepared: This drives my decision of what risk or sacrifice I am willing to take for who or what cause.
2) Mentally Prepared: How will I react during emergency under duress? Does time slow down for me or do I get panicky? How have I done in past emergencies including medical emergencies and car accidents or near misses?
3). Situational Awareness: Practice and test myself. Who is behind me? Is there a car in my blind spot? Who is out of place in this scene? Who could be carrying? Where is my best cover area?
4) Skills Preparation: Know what target distance I can hit reliably and in how many seconds from concealment. Practice enough to know (and work to improve) my average and standard deviation for each cover clothing. Plan my response assuming the worst standard deviation. Build muscle memory. Stay healthy and fit.
5) Visualization: Visualize various scenarios and visualize my actions. Practice the skills needed to accomplish my intended outcome.
6). Carry the tools (gun, holster, reloads, knife) needed to accomplish that outcome. My bare hands are tools also.
7). Post Shoot Preparation: Self defense legal support, insurance, and scripted 911 call so I will speak correctly with my adrenaline pumping and ears ringing.

Be safe.

My prayers go out to this family.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 05:18 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy357 View Post
Very sobering video, reminds me to stay prepared, which includes the following for me.
1) Spiritually Prepared: This drives my decision of what risk or sacrifice I am willing to take for who or what cause.
2) Mentally Prepared: How will I react during emergency under duress? Does time slow down for me or do I get panicky? How have I done in past emergencies including medical emergencies and car accidents or near misses?
3). Situational Awareness: Practice and test myself. Who is behind me? Is there a car in my blind spot? Who is out of place in this scene? Who could be carrying? Where is my best cover area?
4) Skills Preparation: Know what target distance I can hit reliably and in how many seconds from concealment. Practice enough to know (and work to improve) my average and standard deviation for each cover clothing. Plan my response assuming the worst standard deviation. Build muscle memory. Stay healthy and fit.
5) Visualization: Visualize various scenarios and visualize my actions. Practice the skills needed to accomplish my intended outcome.
6). Carry the tools (gun, holster, reloads, knife) needed to accomplish that outcome. My bare hands are tools also.
7). Post Shoot Preparation: Self defense legal support, insurance, and scripted 911 call so I will speak correctly with my adrenaline pumping and ears ringing.

Be safe.

My prayers go out to this family.
Well said Andy.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #56
 
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I think the largest, most important aspect that can be taken from this video is going to be carry as you will, but actively carry. It is just as important for someone to who leaves one in the pipe to practice not blowing their own leg off on the draw as it is for someone who doesn't cary with one in the pipe to practice a draw with a slide rack in the same motion.

I would say that not a day goes by that I don't unload my carry piece and do between 2-6 practice draws, all the way through follow up-double taps after the draw. Always starting slow, and progressing my speed to 100%.

Practice, practice, practice.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 08:20 AM   #57
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckJM53 View Post
With respect to those who choose to carry with an empty chamber, this story (with video) is another great reminder why I choose to always carry with one in the chamber.

While there is no guarantee that this man and his son would have survived had he not had to take the time to attempt to rack the slide, he clearly had no chance against a perp with a gun at the ready

[VIDEO] This Man Carried With An Empty Chamber, And It Cost Him His Life And His Son?s Life ? Concealed Nation
Buck ... bad link to video
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Old April 11th, 2017, 08:36 AM   #58
 
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This is why I get incensed when I hear people say you have to be a wuss to use a carry gun with a safety. If you don't want a safety, don't use one. Don't talk down to those who do. I hear again and again people tell me they don't carry with a chambered round because they chose a gun without a manual safety. It is far easier to switch off a safety than to rack the slide (and you can do it with only one hand). If you are not comfortable carrying a chambered round without a safety, get a gun WITH one.
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Old April 11th, 2017, 10:12 AM   #59
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckJM53 View Post
With respect to your thoughts, and while I agree that situational awareness is a vital element, I personally practice extensively (generally two to three times per week for many years) from concealment so that I would give myself/family the best chance possible in the event of an attack. YMMV
All due respect, do you think you're the rule, or the exception?
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Old April 11th, 2017, 12:38 PM   #60
 
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Terry,

You being revolver guy menas that you are not distrcted by the RAP or any other
Ruger semi-auto

However, I wonder if you carry your GP44 these days, or have you fondled one yet?

I know a guy who was Hunting and had a guy linp into camp with a .44 Magnum
bullet in his lower leg.

The guy had been wearing a Old Model Super, and chopping kindling at the same time.

Somehow the hatchet hit the hammer over a live round in the chamber.

That said: it was an experine to live by and the transfer bar would have saved the
guy from the accident.

Unless an Old Model, I always load 6 rounds.

5 for the 5-shot Rugers.
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