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Carrying with an Empty Chamber Cost Two Lives

This is a discussion on Carrying with an Empty Chamber Cost Two Lives within the CCW forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by GeoJammy I have to disagree here - I don't carry a chambered round in my Glock 42 or Kahr CM9 when out ...


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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:56 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by GeoJammy View Post
I have to disagree here - I don't carry a chambered round in my Glock 42 or Kahr CM9 when out and about. First of all, I don't go to any of the so-called hot zones and times - period. What are those? Stop and robs any time of the day, and any stores in the no-go zones around here - especially after dark. Take note that this incident occurred at a stop and rob as far as I can tell. I get gas at Costco and shop in regular groc stores, etc during daylight. I have a much greater fear of a negligent discharge than being the victim of a no-warning deadly assault someplace. I also refuse to fall into the trap of believing that I have to be armed to the teeth every place I go - understand that may cause a serious problem for me at some point. I respect the opinions of others who feel the need to carry chambered - it's not for me and I've survived to 60+ with my way of doing things.
GeoJammy ... You of course have every right to carry when, where and how you choose (assuming legal). There are strong feelings and arguments on both sides of the issue. Thank you for taking the time to weigh in with your thoughts .



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Old April 9th, 2017, 01:11 PM   #32
 
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Everyone is free to carry with their weapon in any state they want, whether it's hot or completely unloaded.
Far be it from me to dictate what someone else may or may not do.

There are an endless number what-ifs and hypothetical situations that can be used to justify carrying a firearm in a disabled state.
Maybe you'll have the time - and stay cool enough - to successfully rack that slide. Maybe not.

My view is - if you have confidence in your awareness, decision making and weapon handling skills, there is absolutely no reason not to carry hot.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 03:05 PM   #33
 
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Carry what you want and carry how you want, but most of all practice and CARRY!
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Old April 9th, 2017, 06:14 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
Probably because that most modern revolvers have a hammer block/transfer bar. Some semi autos do not, also the trigger pull is drastically different. Then at one time the military did not allow soldiers to carry with a round in the chamber. IDF still does not. A Glock has a light switch trigger pull at around 5 pounds or less. A revolver has anywhere from an 8 pound up DA trigger pull. A modern SA revolver will not fire until the firearm is cocked, and then the trigger pulled. The truth is there are less ND's with revolvers, does not mean they are safer when used properly. It does mean that humans are human, and make errors. Another conundrum is people get upset when they see a gun's hammer back, but are fine with a seeing a striker fired gun ready to go. There is no difference between a 1911 80 series condition 0, and a glock. They both will go boom when the trigger is pulled, and only when the trigger is pulled.

There are people who also get upset because a person carries with a semi auto with a magazine safety. Many depts in the past required it, it does have advantage in some cases, like a gun snatch. It was part of training for the model 39 to hit the mag release if an attempt was made. Then once control was regained another magazine was inserted. There have been cases where I removed the magazine before entering mental wards. I also pulled the magazine going into a crowd, but I had a fully loaded bug.

Again I would rather have everybody carrying condition 3, than just myself carrying condition 1. Had other people been carrying, even condition 3, the robber would have had a big surprise, and the son would have survived.
This is interesting thread and you bring up a excellent point in your last paragraph. This may cause some controversy, but mine isn't coming out for anyone else besides me or my family...period. I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but if anyone wants me to protect them, and subject myself to the aftermath, they are in deep trouble. Unless we can't run, mine comes out for my family and my family only. No, I'm not a sheep, but the only flock I'm willing to subject myself to regarding this matter is the one to which I'm related. You bet it could have had a different outcome if others had been carrying...they should have been. I realize this may not be a very popular viewpoint, but I spent a lot, and I mean a lot of time with this in my mind before I started carrying, and I know exactly why I do it.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 06:16 PM   #35
 
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This is absolutely gut wrenching to watch. He was at a definite disadvantage. His fumbling with his gun cost him his life and sadly his sons too. Trying to imagine myself in that situation I think I would have been inclined to give the bad guy what he wanted and left the gun in its holster. There's no amount of money that's worth my life.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 06:18 PM   #36
 
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YES exactly, but it only had five rounds because of it. And we have all been told by the youtube professionals that we will die if we do not have high capacity. SA revolver people get the same people telling them what to do as anybody else who gets the BS from internet experts. The fact is EVERY shot from a SA revolver has to be cocked first.
I carried a single action 44 for a long time. One of my favorites. To me cocking a hammer was no different, ok a little different, than thumbing the safety on a cocked and locked 1911.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 07:10 PM   #37
 
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This is absolutely gut wrenching to watch. He was at a definite disadvantage. His fumbling with his gun cost him his life and sadly his sons too. Trying to imagine myself in that situation I think I would have been inclined to give the bad guy what he wanted and left the gun in its holster. There's no amount of money that's worth my life.

I have to agree. Very hard to watch. Even though we've all seen the video, we weren't there. Maybe he wasn't prepared but maybe he also knew or at least sensed he and he son were going to be killed regardless of compliance. We can't see/feel the dynamics from this video.

I'll join the chorus in saying I won't try to convince anyone who carries to carry any way other than the way they've already decided to carry.

I personally straddle the safe vs ready fence myself. I carry an SR9c with a safety - always chambered with the safety on. I also carry an LCP Custom without a safety and chambered but with a long hard DA trigger much more like a revolver than a striker fired weapon. I also own a Glock but do not carry it nor would I trade my LCP Custom for an LCP II with an SA like trigger. That's my balance. YMMV.


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Old April 9th, 2017, 07:30 PM   #38
 
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May the Lord receive this gentleman and his son in love. For those who remain let's live, learn, train and be resolved to be in all ways prepared.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 09:02 PM   #39
 
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We are CCW permit holders. Not the A-Team.

So we carry a round in the pipe. How many of us

can fast draw? Even if we can fast draw, how many

can clear the gun quickly from the concealed position?


IMO, our situational awareness may save us. Because our

speed on the draw, from concealment, surely won't.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 11:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Airdale View Post
Carry what you want and carry how you want, but most of all practice and CARRY!
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooksetter View Post
This is interesting thread and you bring up a excellent point in your last paragraph. This may cause some controversy, but mine isn't coming out for anyone else besides me or my family...period. I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but if anyone wants me to protect them, and subject myself to the aftermath, they are in deep trouble. Unless we can't run, mine comes out for my family and my family only. No, I'm not a sheep, but the only flock I'm willing to subject myself to regarding this matter is the one to which I'm related. You bet it could have had a different outcome if others had been carrying...they should have been. I realize this may not be a very popular viewpoint, but I spent a lot, and I mean a lot of time with this in my mind before I started carrying, and I know exactly why I do it.
Hook ... Your thoughts on this matter should not be flamed. I determined long ago as well that my purpose for carry is to protect myself/family if at all possible and would not hesitate to extricate myself/family from danger if the option was available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf View Post
We are CCW permit holders. Not the A-Team.
So we carry a round in the pipe. How many of us can fast draw? Even if we can fast draw, how many can clear the gun quickly from the concealed position? IMO, our situational awareness may save us. Because our speed on the draw, from concealment, surely won't.
With respect to your thoughts, and while I agree that situational awareness is a vital element, I personally practice extensively (generally two to three times per week for many years) from concealment so that I would give myself/family the best chance possible in the event of an attack. YMMV

Last edited by BuckJM53; April 9th, 2017 at 11:25 PM.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 03:53 AM   #41
 
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Hook ... Your thoughts on this matter should not be flamed. I determined long ago as well that my purpose for carry is to protect myself/family if at all possible and would not hesitate to extricate myself/family from danger if the option was available.

Thanks. It seems these days everyone wants to be coming to someone's rescue. I know that's not where this thread began, and this is the last I'll say about it, but generally discretion is the better part of valor. Can't remember where I heard that, but I did nit create it.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 04:26 AM   #42
 
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FTR I agree, I carry to protect mine. But in this particular case I would have expected to also be shot along with the father, and son. Even though I take this stance I also go to John Lott who stated that more guns equals less crime. Well it is not the guns, but actually the people carrying, or with guns in the home. Lowering crime are unintended consequences to self defense carry. And to be truthful I would prefer NOT to use my gun to shoot another period. Other people carrying has that outcome, the more people armed, the more criminals will have second thoughts about targeting victims.

Regretted I have used my firearm for SD twice. One two legged, and one four legged, both incidents were not pleasant, and I really do not want to repeat them.

IF there ever is an incident like the one in the OP, the first thing I will do is look for an exit. But once the bad person starts killing that person has no problems with killing, and may target us. That is the reason police are allowed to shoot fleeing violent felons, besides public safety, they are still a danger to them while at large.

The man who died was already injured before he pulled his gun, likely he was behind the curve whether chambered or not. It took me a couple passes to notice the blood dripping on the floor before he pulled his gun.

I go back to there are bad people that do bad things, and some are downright evil. If we come across the evil we are up a creek without a paddle. The ethics of legal self defense is we must be threatened to use force, that always puts us behind the curve.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 04:39 AM   #43
 
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NAWagner ... At the end of the day it is your decision alone. That said, from my perspective the following are the reasons I carry with a round chambered:

1. My first round from the draw is nearly a second faster. My live fire exercises and my iTarget Pro laser place my average time from draw (beneath cover garment) to first round fired at +/- 1.4 seconds with a round cambered and +/- 2.3 if I have to chamber a round. Given the "perp distance" is generally less than 7 yards, that one second makes a big difference IMHO.

2. Adding an extra step if racking the slide under pressure provides an additional opportunity for something to go wrong. What if my hand slips or the round fails to fully chamber or the perp closes on me with the extra time (knife or attempts to grab my gun) or gets 2 rounds off before I can chamber the first (assuming he already has his firearm pointing in my direction).

3. I don't buy into the "Isreali Mossad" argument. I suspect that the majority of their confrontations are on the offense and not being robbed by some drugged up idiot. IMHO it's an apples and oranges difference between racking the slide to go on offense verses drawing your firearm to fend off an attacker.

In answer to your final question, if it were my decision I would opt to retrain myself and family. Good luck with your decision .
The one I would put at number one is......what if you have a failure to feed, while trying to chamber a round under this MOST etreme duress ??
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Old April 10th, 2017, 04:55 AM   #44
 
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Originally Posted by Kenny53 View Post
I want to go home to heaven but not today. Always chambered.
Reminds me of an old bluegrass song that says, "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die". Being right with God and ready to go needs to be our main priority in life, but we don't have to be in a hurry to make the trip.
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Old April 10th, 2017, 05:20 AM   #45
 
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For me it's KISS (keep it simple stupid) one in the pipe and no safety.

But in all honesty the vid shows a close quarters fight where a gun is already drawn so the mistake was long before the owner went for the gun.

Last edited by petergunn; April 10th, 2017 at 04:32 PM.
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