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Carrying with an Empty Chamber Cost Two Lives

This is a discussion on Carrying with an Empty Chamber Cost Two Lives within the CCW forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by BuckJM53 WW ... As I alluded to in post #12, it is indeed each persons responsibility to make this (and every) decision ...


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Old April 9th, 2017, 08:49 AM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by BuckJM53 View Post
WW ... As I alluded to in post #12, it is indeed each persons responsibility to make this (and every) decision affecting their life and the safety thereof. That said, IMHO there is nothing wrong with a well reasoned conversation on this topic and disagree that such debate is "embarrassing for the gun community". If that were the case, it would be pointless to have the majority of discussions we have here. YMMV
When it comes to posts like the one below, and some even worse, it is embarrassing. It always happens, someone thinks they have the authority to tell someone not to carry a certain type of gun, a certain type of ammo. Last month a OC thread had to be shut down because of the disparaging remarks.

As I pointed out, I carry chambered, that is all that needs to be said. It is none of our business how another person goes about their lives legally. Otherwise that is the behavior of progressives who believe they can force their will on others.

{Edited to remove unnecessary personal remarks}




Last edited by BuckJM53; April 9th, 2017 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Unnecessary personal remarks
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Old April 9th, 2017, 09:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
When it comes to posts like the one below, and some even worse, it is embarrassing. It always happens, someone thinks they have the authority to tell someone not to carry a certain type of gun, a certain type of ammo. Last month a OC thread had to be shut down because of the disparaging remarks.

As I pointed out, I carry chambered, that is all that needs to be said. It is none of our business how another person goes about their lives legally. Otherwise that is the behavior of progressives who believe they can force their will on others.

{Edited to remove unnecessary personal remarks}
WW ... Rest assured I won't let this thread get out of hand
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Old April 9th, 2017, 09:31 AM   #18
 
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IMO the most important factor to survival whether armed or not is situational awareness. Same goes for method of carry, and tactics used. Most police officers carry chambered, but the video I am going to show a officer is killed, it made no difference that his gun was chambered. But in the second part a off duty officer used his brain to survive, easily he could have racked on his draw, and Israel soldiers do it that way, and survive. It is just a matter of training, staying focused under pressure, and SA.

There are advantages to unchambered, such as a gun snatch, but snatches rarely happen. Concealed carry can provide advantage, or it can be an obstacle to draw, just like condition 3.

I believe that I have a better advantage if a dozen law abiding citizens are carrying while I am than a round in the chamber. My focus is encouraging people to carry, not tell them not to carry unless they do as I say.

I am lucky in NC when I go out of the house I encounter usually at least two or three people open carrying. That tells me there are at least twice, or three times as many people conceal carrying, making the odds for the bad guy not good. It also lowers crime where I won't have to use my gun, or possibly become a victim.

Carry, carry, carry even if you wear a pink tutu, and purple hair while you carry, just carry.

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Old April 9th, 2017, 10:08 AM   #19
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IMO the most important factor to survival whether armed or not is situational awareness. Same goes for method of carry, and tactics used. .... I believe that I have a better advantage if a dozen law abiding citizens are carrying while I am than a round in the chamber. My focus is encouraging people to carry, not tell them not to carry unless they do as I say ..... Carry, carry, carry even if you wear a pink tutu, and purple hair while you carry, just carry.
Agreed (though my wife says I look fat in a pink tutu)
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Old April 9th, 2017, 10:23 AM   #20
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Okay. You are exactly correct. Here is some more info on this particular shooting.

The victims were clients at my wife's bank. She new both of them very well. After letting the family grieve,my wife asked the surviving son,if he (the father), had any formal firearms training, or had been practicing. The answer was: "No".
When the video was release, I was heartbroken, as it depicts exactly what happened. The lack of familiarity with his firearm cost them everything.

The bad guys went on to put 16 rounds into his lifeless body...

Takeaway: Train, train, train. Practice, practice, practice.
cptpoly ... Thank you for providing additional detail in this sad tale. I was not surprised to hear that this fellow was not "well trained/practiced" and agree with you without question that training + practice + situational awareness will give one the best chance of survival if one is ever in the unfortunate position to draw in self defense.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #21
 
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cptpoly ... Thank you for providing additional detail in this sad tale. I was not surprised to hear that this fellow was not "well trained/practiced" and agree with you without question that training + practice + situational awareness will give one the best chance of survival if one is ever in the unfortunate position to draw in self defense.
I agree, I will add that taking a class once every now, and then is not going to replace practice. Nothing is going to replace common sense, and situational awareness. Personally I would have just let the robbers leave at that point, most robbers leave after getting what they want.

The problem I see is he did not practice drawing, and racking as the Israeli's do, if it had been a IDF soldier I would bet the outcome would have been much different.

There was an incident in a VA pharmacy a few years back. The hero, took down the armed robber with a SA revolver. Now we have all heard how we will die if we carry a SA revolver. And the nice youtube professional trainers have all said how bad that is. But the man had practiced a lot as he was a SASS member. He also had no choice in the matter as the robber had already shot the clerk with no warning. As it was not a transfer bar revolver, I believe it was a 1875 Remington there was no round in the chamber under the hammer, he had to cock it first before firing.

Last edited by Walkingwolf; April 9th, 2017 at 11:12 AM.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 11:05 AM   #22
 
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Thanks for sharing. Life is a series of lessons, if you choose to learn only from your own it can be significantly shorter.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 11:14 AM   #23
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Thanks for sharing. Life is a series of lessons, if you choose to learn only from your own it can be significantly shorter.
MeagerHair ... You have identified the exact reason I thought this would be a useful conversation, especially for those among us who may currently be giving consideration to the various carry options.

My intent is not to change the minds of the unchangeable (including myself), but instead to offer useful insight to all onlookers

Last edited by BuckJM53; April 9th, 2017 at 11:17 AM.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 11:31 AM   #24
 
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I took another look, and noticed that the father had already been shot before he tried to draw. At the .36 mark he is bleeding onto the floor, even with a chambered round he was already in trouble, and it could be the reason he decided to go for it. It is a sad case, bad people do bad things, and some people will die. Chances of this though are very small, extremely small for most of us.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 11:47 AM   #25
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I have to disagree here - I don't carry a chambered round in my Glock 42 or Kahr CM9 when out and about. First of all, I don't go to any of the so-called hot zones and times - period. What are those? Stop and robs any time of the day, and any stores in the no-go zones around here - especially after dark. Take note that this incident occurred at a stop and rob as far as I can tell. I get gas at Costco and shop in regular groc stores, etc during daylight. I have a much greater fear of a negligent discharge than being the victim of a no-warning deadly assault someplace. I also refuse to fall into the trap of believing that I have to be armed to the teeth every place I go - understand that may cause a serious problem for me at some point. I respect the opinions of others who feel the need to carry chambered - it's not for me and I've survived to 60+ with my way of doing things.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 11:52 AM   #26
 
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I have to disagree here - I don't carry a chambered round in my Glock 42 or Kahr CM9 when out and about. First of all, I don't go to any of the so-called hot zones and times - period. What are those? Stop and robs any time of the day, and any stores in the no-go zones around here - especially after dark. Take note that this incident occurred at a stop and rob as far as I can tell. I get gas at Costco and shop in regular groc stores, etc during daylight. I have a much greater fear of a negligent discharge than being the victim of a no-warning deadly assault someplace. I also refuse to fall into the trap of believing that I have to be armed to the teeth every place I go - understand that may cause a serious problem for me at some point. I respect the opinions of others who feel the need to carry chambered - it's not for me and I've survived to 60+ with my way of doing things.
If it works for you, at least you are carrying. I wish a lot more people would carry. Wonder what would have happened if a half a dozen patrons were carrying during this robbery.

You have to make the choices that are best for you, also you have to live with them. We have to hope we are making the best choices. I just want more people to take responsibility for their safety instead of counting on the police. Thank you for that.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:13 PM   #27
 
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Without a round in the chamber it's just a club. Best quote "He had the rest of your life to chamber a round". Being a revolver fan I keep all my chambers full.
Yes. I don't understand when some people consider a fully-loaded revolver to be 'safe', but cringe when a perfectly good (properly functioning) semi-auto has a round in the chamber and a full magazine.
If you make a handgun available to yourself for defensive purposes, it should be ready to go with one hand.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:20 PM   #28
 
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...As it was not a transfer bar revolver, I believe it was a 1875 Remington there was no round in the chamber under the hammer, he had to cock it first before firing.
Huh? Doesn't one always need to cock a SA revolver before firing it, regardless of transfer bar action or not? Any revolver I know, SA or DA, will advance the cylinder one chamber upon cocking it.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:27 PM   #29
 
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Yes. I don't understand when some people consider a fully-loaded revolver to be 'safe', but cringe when a perfectly good (properly functioning) semi-auto has a round in the chamber and a full magazine.
If you make a handgun available to yourself for defensive purposes, it should be ready to go with one hand.
Probably because that most modern revolvers have a hammer block/transfer bar. Some semi autos do not, also the trigger pull is drastically different. Then at one time the military did not allow soldiers to carry with a round in the chamber. IDF still does not. A Glock has a light switch trigger pull at around 5 pounds or less. A revolver has anywhere from an 8 pound up DA trigger pull. A modern SA revolver will not fire until the firearm is cocked, and then the trigger pulled. The truth is there are less ND's with revolvers, does not mean they are safer when used properly. It does mean that humans are human, and make errors. Another conundrum is people get upset when they see a gun's hammer back, but are fine with a seeing a striker fired gun ready to go. There is no difference between a 1911 80 series condition 0, and a glock. They both will go boom when the trigger is pulled, and only when the trigger is pulled.

There are people who also get upset because a person carries with a semi auto with a magazine safety. Many depts in the past required it, it does have advantage in some cases, like a gun snatch. It was part of training for the model 39 to hit the mag release if an attempt was made. Then once control was regained another magazine was inserted. There have been cases where I removed the magazine before entering mental wards. I also pulled the magazine going into a crowd, but I had a fully loaded bug.

Again I would rather have everybody carrying condition 3, than just myself carrying condition 1. Had other people been carrying, even condition 3, the robber would have had a big surprise, and the son would have survived.
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Old April 9th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #30
 
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Huh? Doesn't one always need to cock a SA revolver before firing it, regardless of transfer bar action or not? Any revolver I know, SA or DA, will advance the cylinder one chamber upon cocking it.
YES exactly, but it only had five rounds because of it. And we have all been told by the youtube professionals that we will die if we do not have high capacity. SA revolver people get the same people telling them what to do as anybody else who gets the BS from internet experts. The fact is EVERY shot from a SA revolver has to be cocked first.
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