chevyhighrider

Hey everyone, I was hoping to get my CPL soon, but upon reading the MI requirements I am feeling discouraged. A good ways into the list it states:

"16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

I am pretty sure that rules me out since I take medication for anxiety(and for my stomach) and also decided to start seeing a psychologist this year to help improve my difficulties. Now with that being said my anxiety has mostly developed over time due to Irritble Bowel Syndrome and the negative impact on my life it has had. I am in no way a violent person and am a very responsible person who was raised around guns and knifes and so on my whole life by very responsible-orientated adults. I hold a very good job and nobody at work or even my friends know about my anxiety issues so basically, although it affects my life a good bit I am still able to function in normal situations with nobody being able to tell much of anything. I hope that I am not going to be ruled out just because as soon as you hear the word anxiety or depression it brings a image of someone dangerous to mind. Thats not me, anyways sorry for the rant I just needed to get that off my chest. So what do you guys think of the chances? I am not sure if they dig to find out more about you or if when you check the box saying that yes you fall under the mental health thing that you are instantly disqualified.

hutchman

I am no expert by a long shot, but I just can't imagine that anxiety is a mental illness. If it was me, I would talk to my doctor.

cat skinner

Got any lawyer friends? If so, you might ask them how MI defines "mental illness."

chevyhighrider

No lawyer friends, well let me take that back I have an old friend that is studying law right now but I dont want to get ahold of him. He started getting into some stuff that I didnt like so I stopped talking to him. As far as how Michigan classifies mental ilness, that is the big question. I thought of just going down to the police station, getting the CPL application kit and filling it out honestly and seeing what happens. But I worry like I said that since I will put a "yes" next to the question about mental illness, that I might be immediatley judged poorly. I wanted to be informed first so I can possibly have a better chance.

chewball22

Don't check yes, unless you want to get denied. Does the govt actually have access to medical records at this point? I thought ol Scott Brown put the brakes on that deal!

chewball22

I know a guy that has two dwi's, and who is always on a prescription of xanax, or paxil, or whatever the doctor is throwing at him for anxiety at the time. He gets to carry a gun. I'm pretty sure he didn't check yes to a mental illness question.

Halfwit

Ask your psychologist if your anxiety is considered a mental illness in the eyes of the law.Don't tell him why your asking or just lie to him.If he says yes then think about it for a bit.There are other options for personal protection,not as good as a gun but they have been known to work.

If you lie and get your carry license and end up shooting someone and they find out you lied about a mental illness everything will turn around on you.It is possable that You will become the attacker who has a history of telling lies.The person who attacked you,the one you shot,now becomes the victim.You will go to jail,you will be sued by the victim or his family for whatever you have left after paying your lawyer and for future earnings if you ever get out of jail.

If it was me and the Doc said yes,it is a mental illness and the doc has it written down in my files that he has diagnosed me with this illness.I would not even fill out the paper work for the license,not going to lie about it but I am also not going to tell the goverment about it!


If the doc says its not a mental illness then watcha gonna carry????

Macx

Generally speaking, when they are asking the mental illness question . . . they are looking for hospitalizations (like the locked ward), if you have been ruled not guilty due to mental illness, or if you can't manage yourself outside a group home.

They are not looking for Joe Whohasaphobiaandatherapist or Sue Whossymptomsaremanagedwithperscriptions.

In every state I am aware of, the litmus test is "can you manage daily life without having mental health care forced on you"? If you don't have a case worker, a social worker, and a psychologist assigned to you as part of the deal that keeps you out of a facility. . . you are good to go, unless the state says otherwise via rejection letter & even those have a reasonable appeal rate.

savage shooter

Good comments so far, and I agree with finding out if what you are being treated for is indeed a "diagnosed mental illness." 99% of the country experiences anxiety or stress at some point in their lives. The other 1% are the people causing it.

Our medical history used to be one of the most private areas of our lives, but that's not true anymore. You can get a free copy of your file once a year at the medical information bureau here: http://mib.com. It's kind of like a medical record garbage can created by the medical insurance companies.

Good luck, and stay legal. If it were me, and I found out that it was a diagnosed mental illness, I would just stop the application process, and spend a few $$ for a legal consult. On the firearm applications here in NJ we fill out a mental health records waiver form and they search for records of admission, commitment or treatment.

usa1_chevy

contact your state office and ask them. perhaps a letter from psychologist to go with it?

liberalsmakemepuke

It's hard for me to imagine that someone who has anxiety, and has sought the help of a therapiston their own would be diagnosed with mental illness. That would rule out probably 15% of the people in the country. I wish you the best, just the fact that you have the stones to talk about it with a couple thousand strangers means you can't be TOO anxious.

chevyhighrider

Thanks for all the responses. Some of you guys were up pretty early this morning eh . First of all I am definately not gonna lie on the form, I dont want something coming back to haunt me. I did ask my psychologist if I would be excempt from a CPL and she wasnt able to give me a cut and dry answer. Basically she just said that when they bill the insurance company they have to list the patient under a certain code that describes why they are qualified to recieve the insurance backing.
As far as what Macx was touching on, when reading the MI CPL requirements in two other places it talks about someone who is clearly mentally ill, like someone who pled guilty by reason of insanity, or was found guilt by reason of insanity. Also if you were involumtarily commited to a mental institution. Those make pretty clear sense, but # 16 as I quoted in my first post is not as clear. I am gonna just go talk to my local police department and see what they have to say. I would really like the peace of mind to be able to carry my GP100 in my car legally since I work in a city that is far above the national averages in crime. But if I can't legally then I will respect that and find an alternative. I'll keep you guys posted. Oh btw ya its true that like half the country is on depression/anxiety meds as well. So that offers some hope.

bogus bill

Just check no and go! Cripes, next they will ask did you ever vote republican?

Wild B

For the 4473 - they are speaking of being adjudicated mentally ill by a court. A good rule of thumb is if you have ever been involuntarily held in a psych ward due to court order or by someone who has power of attorney over you - you don't qualify. If you have ever checked yourself in, you may or may not qualify depending on the reason. You can call the N.I.C.S. at 1-877-444-NICS (6427).
As for the exact wording on the 4473 it is -
A person adjudicated mental defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution or incompetent to handle own affairs, including dispositions to criminal charges of found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial.

Edit: Whoops, just noticed it was not for a NICS background check. Disregard the above as it may not apply to your state's concealed weapon permit..

liberalsmakemepuke

If things go south with getting a carry permit, and you are mainly looking to carry in your vehicle. Check into the transport laws in your state. Some do not require a CCW to transport from your home to place of business. Some allow unhindered transport if cased and unloaded. While I would never advocate any unlawful activity, one could imagine how quickly a mag could be removed and the last two inches of a rug zipped shut, all done in the confines of a vehicles console. Since this would be illegal, I am NOT suggesting it..... I just know that there are a lot of people who live in restrictive CCW states that have to rely on the grey area of transport laws. Bet you never knew how hard you'd have to work to exercise a constitutional right did you?

I think you're going to find that this is a non-issue when you check into it. In our state there is a lot of discretion on the part of the Sheriff. The impetus is placed mainly on whether or not you have been determined to be a danger to the public or yourself.

Let us know how it pans out for you.

Amigo Will

What Wild B said. Many of us Vets with PTSD still get CCW's

Macx

Do NOT Talking to the police about nuances of law is like talking to the butcher at the grocery about a muscle pain in your neck. . . or talking to the teller at the bank about what stocks to invest in . .. yes the butcher deals with muscles and the teller deals with influxes of cash, but they are NOT the right people to talk to about the issue at hand. The psych wouldn't answer you because she fears liability. The police will tell you "no way, you aren't qualified" even though you are . . . because that is their default on the topic (generally). You've gotten good answers here & you can get good answers from a lawyer, no further opinions are needed.

JimH

No simple answer because "laws", "rules", and other such qualifiers are subject to interpretation first by the CCW issuing authority and potentially later by the law enforcement community and judicial system. On top of that, every state is different and often counties within a state have different qualification "requirements".

Having "qualified" for CCW in several states in which I've lived, and having dealt with "mental health qualification requirements" for other certifications of various types, I'm still not qualified to give you a black and white answer! I will say that, in general, the phrase in your CCW ap that reads, ..."Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made..." is used by most certifying activities to mean diagnosed by a licensed physician who practices psychiatry (psychiatrist). Although several disorders, such as anxiety or mood disorders, are loosly grouped under the term "mental illnesses", it has been my experience that the mental health qualifying criteria is more about psychotic (e.g. schizophrenia) and personality (e.g. anti-social) disorders that generally require treatment by a licensed physician (psychiatrist), rather than a psychologist. Again, sorry to be less than black and white but interpretation and application is totally subjective and varies county by county and state by state and even person by person within the certifying organization.

My suggestion is that you do one of two things:
(1) discuss with your psychologist what criteria would be necessary for you to meet to be considered "cured" of the mental illness you have been diagnosed as having, if indeed you have been formally diagnosed (documented as such in your health record). If you haven't been formally diagnosed with a mental illness and are only receiving medical treatment, you answer "NO". If you have been formally diagnosed, again, see what it would take to be considered "cured" and formally documented as such in your health record and then you'd answer "NO".
(2) If your medical record contains documentation that you are currently being treated for a mental illness, answer the question "YES" and provide in the remarks or comments section the exact "mental illness(es)" (disorder(s)) you are formally diagnosed as currently having. You can also request that your psychologist provide a statement as to the exact disorder(s) and the degree to which that you suffer from. For example, your psychologist could certify that you suffer from a ..."mild case of anxiety disorder" and leave it at that in your application.

JAG

I think you will be okay, I take meds for anxiety and live in MI and have a ccw.

jag

Flash

There are many forms of Anxiety, which is a mental health disorder. A mental health disorder is a mental health illness. Any function of the brain that sends the body off the beaten path or keeps it on the straight and narrow is described as our condition of mental health. Its not physical health, it's mental health. A panic disorder isn't a common part of normal developement therefore, it becomes a mental illness or a mental disorder. To lie on the application would certainly be construed as commiting a felony. Now, you instantly have a freedom issue, not just a panic disorder. Choose wisely.

chewball22

I just looked at a Michigan state police website. If you don't have a concealed permit it has to be unloaded in the trunk.

gqucool

chevyhighrider, I would not talk to the local police doing this you will "Label" yourself. You and your Dr. knows you are mentally sound I would check no on #16 and move on! You are being honest with yourself but being too open and too honest could stop you from getting a CCW permit. Thats my 2 cents worth!!

tkarter

If you want a ruling against anxiety being a mental health disorder of the magnitude to keep you from obtaining a CCH you just have to start asking for it. They will certainly oblige.

As others have stated it is a matter of if you have been committed or forced to treatment. Unable to care for yourself.

You can honestly answer no to that question if you haven't been forced into treatment or declared mentally ill.

imho

tk

terry_p

It seems to me that you are almost feeling ashamed of having anxiety. It is something that everyone has and is worse in some than others. It sounds like your physical aliments are contributing to your worries which to me says you are quite sane. You have something wrong and it is frightening, been there. The process you are going through with your Dr. will open up the deep down reasons for your feelings and allow you to understand, feel better about yourself and deal with it. I would not let your current feelings about yourself hold you back from being able to protect yourself. Give it a go and don't worry about the questions as I see no evidence that you have been diagnosed with any sort of mental illness.

JRICKARD81

Whats sad is you have to have a permit to carry. "The right of the people to keep and BEAR Arms, shall not be infringed." Having to get a permit is an infringment of your rights! Get to voting folks so we can stop the nonsense. Chevy anxiety should not stop you from gettin a permit, once you can carry I imagine your anxiety level will go down...maybe..at least the criminals will go up!!!

chevyhighrider

My anxiety is not along the lines that people are out to get me or something. Getting a CPL is not a way for me to feel less anxious. It's not even related to my anxiety. I have digestive issues, and they used to be very noisy and embarrasing as hell in class. That and some other stuff just led to me not being comfortable in social situations and around people which wasnt helping since I was a shy kid growing up socially anyways. But I have made adjustments to my diet and decided to see a psychologist to help out. I am improving quite quickly now and beginning to feel more comfortable again with myself noth the good and the bad parts of me.
The CPL for me just makes more sense since it would bring alot more freedom with my gun than not having one. As one of the guys stated earlier, in MI if you only have a permit to OWN a pistol you can only have it in your car if going to or from the range, or a gunshop etc. You can't just drive around with one just because. I dont really plan on carrying it on my person at this point in time, just would like more freedom than the plain ol purchase permit allows. Thanks to everyone who commented so far, I didn't think it would be such a hot topic.

chevyhighrider

I dont agree totally with ya man. If someone has demonstrated in other areas of their life that they don't have the responsiblity to act with good judgement and reason, ie they keep getting behind the wheel drunk or have a violent past I for one dont want to see them walking around with a gun.

JRICKARD81

I was jokin sorry...

JRICKARD81

UR right felons lose that right along with the others they lose also..

chevyhighrider

Lol I think I saw that question listed on the form as an optional one. J/K ya one of the small reasons that finally spurred me to buy a gun was the threat that this freedom is tightening up more and more as time goes on.

Zealot

I'm not a lawyer and I don't live in MI, so I'm not going to tell you how to fill out the form and what the letter of the law says. What I DO know is that when I was going through my state's licensing process I found something different to obsess about every day, fearing that it would keep me from getting my CCW. I thought for sure there was gonna be some loophole to keep me from being able to exercise a right that was so important to me. The mere knowledge that the opinion of one person (officer, beaureaucrat, whatever) could derail my plans made me very self concious and suspicious of the entire process.

Then I got my CCW and nobody ever said BOO. The entire thing was pretty painless and everyhting I thought was a big deal never even came up!

None the less, one word of advice I got from a cop friend in charge of vetting the applications for a nearby town was to disclose everything openly and honestly cuz if he FOUND something someone had "tried to hide" he would reject their request on prinicpal but YMMV.

Just keep on truckin' and you'll always get there!

Checker4Tix

I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV, but you aren't going to get much sympathy from me. I went to VA Tech. Cho had been diagnosed with anxiety order too. If your anixiety order is bad enought that you need meds and to see a psychologist to keep it all in check, I do not believe you should be allowed to own or carry firearms. If and when you are free of meds and your psyhologist gives you a clean bill of health, well, that will be a different situation.

BuckeyeBlast

What a load of crap. Comparing a normal person w/ anxiety to a mass murderer is absurd. I'd be willing to bet that over 99% of people w/ anxiety have never murdered anyone. Though most mass murderers probably do suffer from mental illness, I doubt that many have any Dr diagnosed anxiety.
I wouldn't be making any correlations to anxiety and propensity to murder based on that incident.
To the OP - I've had acute stress disorder, job related, and am probably one of the most responsible firearms owners you'll meet. I am one of the most level headed people, especially when recognizing the responsibilty when I'm carrying a weapon. No way would I consider stress and anxiety a mental illness. If stress and anxiety kept you from carrying a weapon, then police officers should carry nothing more than a can of Mace to prevent them from becoming mass murderers. If I was in your position, I would put no on the form, as I did in OH and was granted my CHL. I do not consider anxiety a mental disorder any more than I'd consider a broken bone a disease. There's lots of different types of anxiety disorders, I think what type and it's severity would define how you should fill out the form.

Checker4Tix

Again, I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV. Nor am I a doctor. I don't claim to know what constitutes a mental disorder in MI.

Here's a dose of reality for you, though: Seung Hui Cho

From this website we learn the following...

Was this a factor is his murderous rampage? Well, it's hard to tell for sure, but at the very least his prior mental/emotional health issues should have raised a red flag for someone. My guess is that it raised just such a red flag for most of you when these facts first came to light. I suspect that many of you reacted with some level of anger that such an individual could have so easily and feely gained access to firearms. Did some of you wonder whether or not his actions would ultimately affect your own 2A freedoms. Many that I've talked with have wondered just that.

Should Cho's mental/emotional health issues should have disqualified him from firearms ownership? I'm not the one to make that call. But at the very least it should be cause for further investigation before a final decision is made, due process notwithstanding.

Another thing that concerns me about this whole discussion is that fully half of ChevyHighRider's posts have been in this one thread. I'm not calling him out as a troll, but in the wake of the VA Tech massacre I find it odd that someone would come here and state publically that they are in counseling and taking medication for an anxiety disorder and then ask for support from a group of strangers. Most who have responded have offered this support and have brushed off any concern at all. That’s great fodder for the anti’s who can read this thread in this very public forum without registering or logging in.

Sorry, I can’t jump on that bandwagon.

CoastiesDad

I do not have a CCW - yet. But after reading all of these post I was wondering how many of us take prozac or a genaric for depression. Does this keep you from obtaining a CCW? There are probably more of us on these types of drugs than are not (only my opinion).

BuckeyeBlast

If you're in C-Falls and are looking to get your CHL, then I HIGHLY reccommend Dan Clevenger. D&D Firearms Instructors, LLC Also reccommended by Pro Armament in the Falls.

v1rot8

Being a pilot, I always check and recheck the Rx my docs suggest I take. I always know how this med or that med will affect my life. Fact. I promise myself that I will never take any Rx and then ask.....can I qualify for this.....or that after I start taking a Rx. Think smart.

Bobshouse

I'd answer your question but I think they're watching me...the phone rang a few minutes ago as I started reading this thread and when I picked up, nobody was there. It was a signal, I'm sure of it.

You're being way to paranoid....which, by the way, is another sign of abnormal behavior.

liberalsmakemepuke

You bring up a couple of valid points, so I don't specifically mean to argue with you, but I want to point out a few things:

Anxiety disorder is a blanket term that can be applied to a huge range of problems from sexual disfunction, hypochondria, PTSD, to severe social disorder. (Cho??) As many as 18% of the population suffers from either a fear or anxiety disorder. (Wikipedia, Anxiety disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

I don't think the Cho example is an entirely fair comparison. There are just too many possibilities, and I think he explained his rather well.

The OP said that his problem was tied to a physiological (gastrointestinal) issue, which was embarrassing, leading to anxiety in public. This seems pretty plausible. He also rather openly told his story about being a new gun owner (Ruger, explains why he chose here) and looking for advice. He started another thread asking for advice on how to mount his new gunvault. Also pretty plausible. If he is a troll looking to use this thread out of context to prove some "nefarious" plot on the part of gunowners, he's going to an awful lot of work to not get much. There is way more inflammatory stuff than this posted all over the internet that could be used to prove us to be nutcases.

I will continue to take him at his word, and stand by my responses. There are way too many obstacles to our 2nd amendment rights as it is. In this PC world, I'm sure a therapist could hang a label on any of us here. I'm sure that I'm probably a narcissitc, passive aggressive with violent tendancies, and a deep seated resentment towards my mother, manifested by my overwhelming desire to posess more and more firearms. This desire for bigger and bigger guns also is a psychological compensation for having a smaller than average penis, and a sign of clinical anxiety. I probably should be on antidepressants. Yet I qualified for a CCW....

reverendg

That is another breach of the Constitution, is it not? Do felons lose the right to free speech?