Not Sure I am Allowed a CCW - Page 2

Wild B · 02-08-2010, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checker4Tix

Again, I am not a lawyer and don't play one on TV. Nor am I a doctor. I don't claim to know what constitutes a mental disorder in MI.

Here's a dose of reality for you, though: Seung Hui Cho

From this website we learn the following...

Was this a factor is his murderous rampage? Well, it's hard to tell for sure, but at the very least his prior mental/emotional health issues should have raised a red flag for someone. My guess is that it raised just such a red flag for most of you when these facts first came to light. I suspect that many of you reacted with some level of anger that such an individual could have so easily and feely gained access to firearms. Did some of you wonder whether or not his actions would ultimately affect your own 2A freedoms. Many that I've talked with have wondered just that.

Should Cho's mental/emotional health issues should have disqualified him from firearms ownership? I'm not the one to make that call. But at the very least it should be cause for further investigation before a final decision is made, due process notwithstanding.

Another thing that concerns me about this whole discussion is that fully half of ChevyHighRider's posts have been in this one thread. I'm not calling him out as a troll, but in the wake of the VA Tech massacre I find it odd that someone would come here and state publically that they are in counseling and taking medication for an anxiety disorder and then ask for support from a group of strangers. Most who have responded have offered this support and have brushed off any concern at all. That’s great fodder for the anti’s who can read this thread in this very public forum without registering or logging in.

Sorry, I can’t jump on that bandwagon.

The key point is that Cho was in treatment as a minor for his mental illness (i.e. against his will since he had no power of attorney), unlike the good gentleman here who is seeking treatment under his own volition. It is a subtle difference, but it is a huge one legally speaking.
Being anxious in public over an irritable bowel and taking calming meds is hugely different from severe depression and selective mutism. Severely depressed individuals are often homicidal and/or suicidal - so yes, Cho should have never been able to own a firearm if his juvenile records had come to light sooner because he was at the very least a danger to himself.
It would seem that chevyhighrider is not a danger to himself or others (unless you count olfactory dangers) and therefore more than likely should not have a reason to be denied a conceal-carry license.
I would however, suggest getting a clean bill of mental health from your physician to make sure without a doubt that you are not a danger to yourself, and to others, and that the treatment that you are receiving is for personal reasons only and not because you are a danger to society or yourself.

Checker4Tix · 02-08-2010, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liberalsmakemepuke

You bring up a couple of valid points, so I don't specifically mean to argue with you, but I want to point out a few things...

You too make some valid points and I do realize that "anxiety disorder" is a broad spectrum diagnosis.

Quote:

The OP said that his problem was tied to a physiological (gastrointestinal) issue, which was embarrassing, leading to anxiety in public. This seems pretty plausible.

It does indeed seem plausible if this is a full and accurate description of his situation. However, one of my sisters-in-law and one good friend have Irritable Bowel Syndrome and neither suffers any level of anxiety over it. I fear there is more to this than has been self-revealed by the OP.

Not intending to be argumentative myself, it is simply the fact that the OP's anxiety has risen to the point of requiring medication and professional counseling that concerns me. Due process notwithstanding, until he gets this sorted out and is cleared by properly trained professionals, I think it prudent that he not be allowed to purchase firearms or obtain a CCW license.

CoastiesDad · 02-08-2010, 02:21 PM

Already took my class with Mark Walton just have not gone to the Summit Sherrif's Office. Great Class for anyone who is new to shooting CCW or not, just like a boating class.

BuckeyeBlast · 02-08-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Checker4Tix

Not intending to be argumentative myself, it is simply the fact that the OP's anxiety has risen to the point of requiring medication and professional counseling that concerns me. Due process notwithstanding, until he gets this sorted out and is cleared by properly trained professionals, I think it prudent that he not be allowed to purchase firearms or obtain a CCW license.

If those are your true feelings, then you should try educating yourself on anxiety and stress. You're making a judgment over the internet about someone and something based on only the slightest details. You need more information before being so judgemental.

chevyhighrider · 02-09-2010, 06:30 AM

Thanks for all the responses, although this has turned into an aurgument over what it means to have anxiety. I am not in a super hurry to get a CCW but like I stated the more freedom it allows is nice since in MI you can't have it with you in your car unless purposfully going somewhere.

As far as the anxiety thing goes, I remember seeing the story on the news about Hui Cho. But I also remember that he had posted pics of himself online posing with his gun in ways that were not responsible AT ALL( http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...ung-HuiCho.jpg ) and indicated that he was not of the type of mindset that he should be around things like guns. I think the most important thing to consider is not the fact that someone has anxiety or depression etc, but HOW they respond to that. In other words one person might be suicidal and a danger to others and themselves drawn to websites that promote hate, violence and so on like in the case of Cho and also the Columbine guys. While somone else just would rather be by themselves sometimes, and are drawn to websites that are more positive and involve things that can be done by yourself (home improvement forums, Electronics Forumns, Automotive Forums etc) and not want to harm others or themselves.

But the main reason I posted this question in the first place was to see if anyone knew what #16 (from origianl post) meant since it is vauge and doesnt outline how you know if you have or have not been DIAGNOSED. The other stipulations on the mental issue are very clear talking about if you have ever been found not guilty by reason of insanity or pleaded using mental health as your reason. I don't want to check yes or no depending on how ...I... see myself, but rather based on fact.

amb1935 · 02-09-2010, 10:05 AM

Lots of great MI carry info here. I believe this will answer your querry.
MCRGO - Frequently Asked Questions about Michigan Gun Laws

Sensai · 02-10-2010, 12:19 PM

Sometimes I think that there are only two kinds of people; people with anxiety and carriers.

Seriously, the question that you raise is not a medical question, though it seems like one at first. The application form is a legal document, and the definitions used within it are legal definitions. If you have a question about it, which you do, you should consult a lawyer. It shouldn't cost a lot to get a professional opinion, and if anything goes wrong later you have a valid basis for your actions.

By the way, I agree that the whole permit thing is a violation of the second ammendment. You do not need a permit to speak, to travel, to own property (as long as it isn't a firearm) or to exercise any of your other rights. Why should you have to have a permit to exercise your right to keep and bear arms? I can see restricting the rights of those found guilty of offenses that endanger the public, but this is finding us all guilty until we prove that we are not. Sorry, just had to state my opinion on this one.

DD430 · 02-10-2010, 02:14 PM

My boss was looking for new dump truck drivers and he asked me and a buddy of mine to apply. In Massachusetts in the 1960’s the DMV had a question on the application for a Class ll license having to do with whether or not you’d ‘..ever been treated for a mental disorder?’

My buddy was head over heels for a girl that we’d grown up with. It was so bad that every time he bumped into her he’d have a panic attack. (At the time it was called ‘free-floating anxiety’.) It took him a while to actually come to terms with the actual cause and he eventually went to a doctor who prescribed tranquilizers for the problem. (He took the pills for a while chucking them when he found them to be tougher to handle than were the attacks.)

In any event he answered in the affirmative to the DMV’s question. Not only was he disallowed from proceeding with his CL ll, the DMV also attempted to remove his CL lll automobile license! He went through hell and it took reams of letters and dr’s exams in order to prove that he wasn’t a danger to the public.

What he’d done was to stigmatize himself in the eyes of the bureaucracy. He was a nervous ‘kid’. He wasn’t suffering from a mental ‘illness’. (Perhaps he was suffering from a case of Rectal/Cranial Inversion for checking the ‘Yes’ column on the application, but he wasn’t crazy.)

If I were in your position and I questioned whether or not I was stable enough to CCW, I’d simply hold off and wait until the anxiety issue resolves itself. (It will. My buddy’s did - he’s been married to ‘the’ girl for nearly 40 years.)

Think very carefully about the implications of answering in the affirmative to a ‘loaded’ question like those asked on a government application and, more importantly, be honest with yourself.

chevyhighrider · 02-11-2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DD430

My boss was looking for new dump truck drivers and he asked me and a buddy of mine to apply. In Massachusetts in the 1960’s the DMV had a question on the application for a Class ll license having to do with whether or not you’d ‘..ever been treated for a mental disorder?’

My buddy was head over heels for a girl that we’d grown up with. It was so bad that every time he bumped into her he’d have a panic attack. (At the time it was called ‘free-floating anxiety’.) It took him a while to actually come to terms with the actual cause and he eventually went to a doctor who prescribed tranquilizers for the problem. (He took the pills for a while chucking them when he found them to be tougher to handle than were the attacks.)

In any event he answered in the affirmative to the DMV’s question. Not only was he disallowed from proceeding with his CL ll, the DMV also attempted to remove his CL lll automobile license! He went through hell and it took reams of letters and dr’s exams in order to prove that he wasn’t a danger to the public.

What he’d done was to stigmatize himself in the eyes of the bureaucracy. He was a nervous ‘kid’. He wasn’t suffering from a mental ‘illness’. (Perhaps he was suffering from a case of Rectal/Cranial Inversion for checking the ‘Yes’ column on the application, but he wasn’t crazy.)

If I were in your position and I questioned whether or not I was stable enough to CCW, I’d simply hold off and wait until the anxiety issue resolves itself. (It will. My buddy’s did - he’s been married to ‘the’ girl for nearly 40 years.)

Think very carefully about the implications of answering in the affirmative to a ‘loaded’ question like those asked on a government application and, more importantly, be honest with yourself.

Haha that's great, about your buddy. A few other guys stated this as well and it sounds like it may be the way I go. The sessions with my psychologist are re-affirming what I have thought all along, that I am not "crazy" just had some rough spots in my life up to now that led to mental hurdles (and self defeating thought patterns) that I am slowly beginnig to not see as immovable objects anymore. Life is getting much better for me, I bought my first house a year ago now (man time flys) and with that I am able to be more comfortable with me as I am. So I have no doubt the anxiety and mental difficulties will be overcome especially now that I am actually aware of them and working on them. I think its best to wait for filing the CPL for now and just enjoy the gun at the range and so on till then. By the way I posted in another section about my first outing to the range with the GP100 (actually my first time shooting a handgun) and I did VERY well. I have some pics of the target that I took since I was shocked how well my accuracy was after some intial shots. Maybe I'll post the pics in that thread if anyone's interested. Thanks everyone for taking the time to look and comment here. It's nuts how many have, lots of good info in here. I'll check out a few of the links that were posted as well.

Ruger9 · 02-12-2010, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevyhighrider

Hey everyone, I was hoping to get my CPL soon, but upon reading the MI requirements I am feeling discouraged. A good ways into the list it states:

"16. Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

I am pretty sure that rules me out since I take medication for anxiety(and for my stomach) and also decided to start seeing a psychologist this year to help improve my difficulties. Now with that being said my anxiety has mostly developed over time due to Irritble Bowel Syndrome and the negative impact on my life it has had. I am in no way a violent person and am a very responsible person who was raised around guns and knifes and so on my whole life by very responsible-orientated adults. I hold a very good job and nobody at work or even my friends know about my anxiety issues so basically, although it affects my life a good bit I am still able to function in normal situations with nobody being able to tell much of anything. I hope that I am not going to be ruled out just because as soon as you hear the word anxiety or depression it brings a image of someone dangerous to mind. Thats not me, anyways sorry for the rant I just needed to get that off my chest. So what do you guys think of the chances? I am not sure if they dig to find out more about you or if when you check the box saying that yes you fall under the mental health thing that you are instantly disqualified.

I believe "mental illness" would mean things like bipolar disorder, etc... anxiety
is very common and is a physiological response to stress not a mental disorder. Also most states would require that you were actually adjudicated as having a mental illness and therefore be on the record as such. I would answer no to the question and if you have any doubts consult your physician
for the answer. Not really a problem in my opinion. GOOD LUCK!

Wolverton · 02-12-2010, 05:36 AM

I live in Michigan and the intent of the question is there for two reasons, one to "weed out" people who are willing to admit to a mental illness which is Bullshit because 70% of the US population would have to check that box if they wanted to be honest. The scope of mental illness is so large that almost everyone can be diagnosed with something even if it's just something as silly as having a large Ego and cocky. (Which is in line with seveal social disorders.) The second reason being, true mentally handicapped people who can not make the contious decision between situations which could include paranoia where judgments can be impaired and any illness that takes the person out of a reality to make a conscious decision between right and wrong. (It's wrong to pull your gun out in public and play with it but your illness makes you forget that.) Even forms of Epilepsy can do this.

Rules and questionnaires are to find a way to thin the heard and take away our rights. "Our right to carry is the 2nd amendment", remember that. Anything else is just bureaucratic Rhetoric to make good people like you question themselves. Although I'm not a Doctor, I am in school to be one. I have a double BA Psychology and Biology. Your anxiety disorder is nothing to be afraid of for you personally and is NOT something you ever admit to the federal government.

Unless you've been convicted of any crime and used your illness as a defense, Do NOT check that box.

The sheeple who look over that form for approval are not going to see your logic that it does not impair your judgment, they are just going to see a week minded person that shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. And don't bother asking your MD, they are put into a peculiar spot when asked a question like that. On one hand their medical training tells them any illness is an evil thing and on the other, they have the insurance companies that really do control everything and unless you have a very outspoken Doctor that's will to put his License on the line for you, he's going to tell you, you do have a mental illness and you do not qualify.

You said you "Wont Lie" on the form, I retort by asking you two questions; Do you really want to carry and Do you think your condition really impairs your judgment to act or react accordingly to situations that you may need to defend your life of others around you? If you said yes to the first and no to the second then you need to answer NO on the form.

The question itself is flawed and nondescript.

Checker4Tix · 02-16-2010, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuckeyeBlast

You're making a judgment over the internet about someone and something based on only the slightest details.

Ummm, you mean like you have also done in tacitly giving him the green light to proceed unchecked?

What exactly is "judgemental" about suggesting that, in the name of prudence, he not purchase firearms or obtain a CCW license until he is cleared by properly trained professionals? It actually seems that I have refrained from judging, being willing instead to defer to the judgements of others in a better position to make an educated decision.

Some other excellent advice includes...

From Sensai...

Quote:

The application form is a legal document, and the definitions used within it are legal definitions. If you have a question about it, which you do, you should consult a lawyer. It shouldn't cost a lot to get a professional opinion, and if anything goes wrong later you have a valid basis for your actions.

From DD430...

Quote:

If I were in your position and I questioned whether or not I was stable enough to CCW, I’d simply hold off and wait until the anxiety issue resolves itself.

Vance in AK · 02-17-2010, 10:25 AM

Man I'm glad I live in Alaska.
Basicaly if I can legaly own it I can legaly carry it, either openly or concealed, no permits needed. Last I heard rape, murder, & mayhem rates in Alaska were some of the highest in the nation so when I'm in the city I'm packing.

ratslayer · 02-17-2010, 09:07 PM

I am in the same boat I suffer from anxiety to i take medication for it everyday for 10 years so far. I live in CA and my county is good on issuing CCW's to farmers and I am a farmer.

I to don't know how to answer the question.

Have you ever been in a mental institution, treated for mental illness, or been found
not-guilty by reason of insanity ? No Yes (If yes, explain):

bunzo351 · 02-19-2010, 06:07 PM

I say go for it. The worst that can happen is that they say no.

db cooper · 03-04-2010, 02:22 PM

Glad I live in Free Woolmarket, Ms. If it fits, it goes with me. The GP100 fits, it goes where I go, NEVER a problem.

Nutty Ned · 03-06-2010, 12:22 PM

If you think your unqualified, your not.
Otherwise get a statement from your quack that the medicine is for the bowel
issue.

LFH · 03-08-2010, 08:22 AM

Unfortunately my wife has to take some meds that require a prescription that requires a report to the DPS. Because of that they pulled her driver license unless she appeared before them and contested it. She couldn't drive any way so let it go.

Point is....you will know if you are on any of those type meds. If not, I would not check that box and go for it. If you are....well...give it a shot anyway...maybe it isn't one that gets flagged. Forget it probably if you are on any narcotic type med.

02-12-2010, 05:36 AM	#51
Wolverton Joined: Jan 2010 From: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 163	I live in Michigan and the intent of the question is there for two reasons, one to "weed out" people who are willing to admit to a mental illness which is Bullshit because 70% of the US population would have to check that box if they wanted to be honest. The scope of mental illness is so large that almost everyone can be diagnosed with something even if it's just something as silly as having a large Ego and cocky. (Which is in line with seveal social disorders.) The second reason being, true mentally handicapped people who can not make the contious decision between situations which could include paranoia where judgments can be impaired and any illness that takes the person out of a reality to make a conscious decision between right and wrong. (It's wrong to pull your gun out in public and play with it but your illness makes you forget that.) Even forms of Epilepsy can do this. Rules and questionnaires are to find a way to thin the heard and take away our rights. "Our right to carry is the 2nd amendment", remember that. Anything else is just bureaucratic Rhetoric to make good people like you question themselves. Although I'm not a Doctor, I am in school to be one. I have a double BA Psychology and Biology. Your anxiety disorder is nothing to be afraid of for you personally and is NOT something you ever admit to the federal government. Unless you've been convicted of any crime and used your illness as a defense, Do NOT check that box. The sheeple who look over that form for approval are not going to see your logic that it does not impair your judgment, they are just going to see a week minded person that shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. And don't bother asking your MD, they are put into a peculiar spot when asked a question like that. On one hand their medical training tells them any illness is an evil thing and on the other, they have the insurance companies that really do control everything and unless you have a very outspoken Doctor that's will to put his License on the line for you, he's going to tell you, you do have a mental illness and you do not qualify. You said you "Wont Lie" on the form, I retort by asking you two questions; Do you really want to carry and Do you think your condition really impairs your judgment to act or react accordingly to situations that you may need to defend your life of others around you? If you said yes to the first and no to the second then you need to answer NO on the form. The question itself is flawed and nondescript. Last edited by Wolverton; 02-12-2010 at 05:41 AM.

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02-08-2010, 02:21 PM	#43
CoastiesDad Joined: Jan 2010 From: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio Posts: 41	Already took my class with Mark Walton just have not gone to the Summit Sherrif's Office. Great Class for anyone who is new to shooting CCW or not, just like a boating class.

02-09-2010, 06:30 AM	#45
chevyhighrider Joined: Jan 2010 From: The "Mitten" U.S.A Posts: 17	Thanks for all the responses, although this has turned into an aurgument over what it means to have anxiety. I am not in a super hurry to get a CCW but like I stated the more freedom it allows is nice since in MI you can't have it with you in your car unless purposfully going somewhere. As far as the anxiety thing goes, I remember seeing the story on the news about Hui Cho. But I also remember that he had posted pics of himself online posing with his gun in ways that were not responsible AT ALL( http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...ung-HuiCho.jpg ) and indicated that he was not of the type of mindset that he should be around things like guns. I think the most important thing to consider is not the fact that someone has anxiety or depression etc, but HOW they respond to that. In other words one person might be suicidal and a danger to others and themselves drawn to websites that promote hate, violence and so on like in the case of Cho and also the Columbine guys. While somone else just would rather be by themselves sometimes, and are drawn to websites that are more positive and involve things that can be done by yourself (home improvement forums, Electronics Forumns, Automotive Forums etc) and not want to harm others or themselves. But the main reason I posted this question in the first place was to see if anyone knew what #16 (from origianl post) meant since it is vauge and doesnt outline how you know if you have or have not been DIAGNOSED. The other stipulations on the mental issue are very clear talking about if you have ever been found not guilty by reason of insanity or pleaded using mental health as your reason. I don't want to check yes or no depending on how ...I... see myself, but rather based on fact.

02-09-2010, 10:05 AM	#46
amb1935 Joined: Jan 2010 From: Louisville, KY Posts: 45	Lots of great MI carry info here. I believe this will answer your querry. MCRGO - Frequently Asked Questions about Michigan Gun Laws

02-10-2010, 12:19 PM	#47
Sensai Joined: Dec 2009 From: tidewater Virginia Posts: 11	Sometimes I think that there are only two kinds of people; people with anxiety and carriers. Seriously, the question that you raise is not a medical question, though it seems like one at first. The application form is a legal document, and the definitions used within it are legal definitions. If you have a question about it, which you do, you should consult a lawyer. It shouldn't cost a lot to get a professional opinion, and if anything goes wrong later you have a valid basis for your actions. By the way, I agree that the whole permit thing is a violation of the second ammendment. You do not need a permit to speak, to travel, to own property (as long as it isn't a firearm) or to exercise any of your other rights. Why should you have to have a permit to exercise your right to keep and bear arms? I can see restricting the rights of those found guilty of offenses that endanger the public, but this is finding us all guilty until we prove that we are not. Sorry, just had to state my opinion on this one.

02-10-2010, 02:14 PM	#48
DD430 Joined: Nov 2009 From: New Milford, CT Posts: 52	My boss was looking for new dump truck drivers and he asked me and a buddy of mine to apply. In Massachusetts in the 1960’s the DMV had a question on the application for a Class ll license having to do with whether or not you’d ‘..ever been treated for a mental disorder?’ My buddy was head over heels for a girl that we’d grown up with. It was so bad that every time he bumped into her he’d have a panic attack. (At the time it was called ‘free-floating anxiety’.) It took him a while to actually come to terms with the actual cause and he eventually went to a doctor who prescribed tranquilizers for the problem. (He took the pills for a while chucking them when he found them to be tougher to handle than were the attacks.) In any event he answered in the affirmative to the DMV’s question. Not only was he disallowed from proceeding with his CL ll, the DMV also attempted to remove his CL lll automobile license! He went through hell and it took reams of letters and dr’s exams in order to prove that he wasn’t a danger to the public. What he’d done was to stigmatize himself in the eyes of the bureaucracy. He was a nervous ‘kid’. He wasn’t suffering from a mental ‘illness’. (Perhaps he was suffering from a case of Rectal/Cranial Inversion for checking the ‘Yes’ column on the application, but he wasn’t crazy.) If I were in your position and I questioned whether or not I was stable enough to CCW, I’d simply hold off and wait until the anxiety issue resolves itself. (It will. My buddy’s did - he’s been married to ‘the’ girl for nearly 40 years.) Think very carefully about the implications of answering in the affirmative to a ‘loaded’ question like those asked on a government application and, more importantly, be honest with yourself.

02-17-2010, 10:25 AM	#53
Vance in AK Joined: Nov 2009 From: Kenai, Alaska Posts: 56	Man I'm glad I live in Alaska. Basicaly if I can legaly own it I can legaly carry it, either openly or concealed, no permits needed. Last I heard rape, murder, & mayhem rates in Alaska were some of the highest in the nation so when I'm in the city I'm packing.

02-17-2010, 09:07 PM	#54
ratslayer Joined: Feb 2010 From: CA Posts: 1	I am in the same boat I suffer from anxiety to i take medication for it everyday for 10 years so far. I live in CA and my county is good on issuing CCW's to farmers and I am a farmer. I to don't know how to answer the question. Have you ever been in a mental institution, treated for mental illness, or been found not-guilty by reason of insanity ? No Yes (If yes, explain):

02-19-2010, 06:07 PM	#55
bunzo351 Joined: Sep 2006 From: Michigan Center, Michigan, USA. Posts: 758	I say go for it. The worst that can happen is that they say no.

03-04-2010, 02:22 PM	#56
db cooper Joined: Mar 2010 From: Free Woolmarket Ms. Posts: 3	Glad I live in Free Woolmarket, Ms. If it fits, it goes with me. The GP100 fits, it goes where I go, NEVER a problem.

03-06-2010, 12:22 PM	#57
Nutty Ned Joined: Mar 2010 From: Nc Posts: 872	If you think your unqualified, your not. Otherwise get a statement from your quack that the medicine is for the bowel issue.

03-08-2010, 08:22 AM	#58
LFH Joined: Feb 2010 From: Spring, Texas Posts: 28	Unfortunately my wife has to take some meds that require a prescription that requires a report to the DPS. Because of that they pulled her driver license unless she appeared before them and contested it. She couldn't drive any way so let it go. Point is....you will know if you are on any of those type meds. If not, I would not check that box and go for it. If you are....well...give it a shot anyway...maybe it isn't one that gets flagged. Forget it probably if you are on any narcotic type med.