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ROA Shoots High

This is a discussion on ROA Shoots High within the Black Powder forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; All three of my adjustable ROAs {did} shoot high too. I had to lower my rear sight as well. Easy file fix. Then if you ...


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Old December 30th, 2016, 10:11 AM   #16
 
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All three of my adjustable ROAs {did} shoot high too. I had to lower my rear sight as well. Easy file fix. Then if you want it to shoot high again just adjust the rear sight back up as you now hae some adjustment . My load is 40g of 777 too under .457 round ball.




Last edited by rclark; December 31st, 2016 at 02:42 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 09:24 AM   #17
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rclark View Post
Mine shoot high too.
Yes, it appears that all of the unmodified ones do.

I'm going to shoot it again this weekend and satisfy my suspicion that changing loads won't even come close to fixing this. I have Swiss and Graff black, 777, and Pyrodex. I'm going to cram it as full as I can and still get a ball in there.

I got a dollar that says it will still shoot high. Anybody wanna bet?

After that, I'm gonna file on it.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 10:59 AM   #18
 
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If you choose to not use a 6 o'clock hold on a proper bullseye target, then yes, you will need to modify one of your gun's sights.

Like I said before, with a 25 yd slow fire pistol target at 25 yds and a 6 o'clock hold, my ROA puts them in the middle of the black with a decent loading of T7 powder. See the attached photo for a visual definition.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 02:39 PM   #19
 
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I don't modify my shooting style for each gun that I own. Every gun better shoot 'the same' for given sight picture whatever method I choose to use. No way would I have a set of instructions that say 'this one use six o'clock, and a bit left', and that one says, "hold a bit high, and a bit right' ... Nope. All my guns have to be the same when I pick up one to shoot. But that's just picky me .
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Old January 1st, 2017, 02:01 PM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by rclark View Post
I don't modify my shooting style for each gun that I own.
My point exactly.

I own more than just a couple handguns. Some are for hunting, some are for personal protection, some are range toys. All but one of them shoot where the sights are looking.

Seems like a silly idea to have this one be different that all the others. Going by that sight picture chart above, what they are calling "Sub 6" would not work. I have to hold below the outer edge of the target to hit the bull.

Last edited by Fast Frank; January 1st, 2017 at 02:05 PM.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 02:31 PM   #21
 
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So, Here's What I Did Today.

I looked at this situation pretty carefully, and weighed all the possible options.

I can make the front sight taller, or make the rear sight lower.

The front sight is a one-piece, and it's silver soldered on. Modifying that is out.

So, it's the rear sight then. I looked at the rear sight. (Yeah, and I instantly realized that I would be looking at it every time I shoot this thing) I don't want to file on the sight blade. I will see it and it will bug me. Besides, the rear blade is smallish as it is. I don't want smaller sights.

There's gotta be another option. So, I started thinking about how to make the sight sit lower on the pistol.

I took the sight off.



The cavity that the sight sits in is rough cast. It's a nice smooth casting, but no machine work has been done to it's basic shape.

I pulled out my Single Seven and gave it a look. Yeah, that one has nice sharp edges and it's obviously been cut on during manufacture.

Could it be that simply taking a little metal off the frame would fix this?

I checked out the distance between the top of the hammer and the sight. there's about 1/16" there. That might solve my issue if I bring the sight body down some.



I got out the Dremel. Yeah, I know... Dremels have ruined more guns that just about any thing else. I'm not Bubba, and I cut slowly and carefully.

I used a sanding disc. It makes a nice smooth cut and doesn't remove a lot of metal.



I took the top of the frame down here.



Just the top edge. I carefully made sure both sides were square and even. Cut a little, measure. Cut a little more, Inspect. I test fitted it like 50 times during this.



So I took some cold blue and fixed the bare metal, lubed it up, and put it all back together.

You can't see where I ground on it at all. It's under the sight.

But now I can pull the rear sight down all the way until it just begins to rub on the top of the hammer. Going any lower will require notching the underside of the sight for clearance.

I'm going to leave it where it is and shoot it.



Sorry about the blurry pics... I'll shoot more later.

Hopefully, I can hit the range tomorrow and report back. I think it's fixed.
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 10:13 AM   #22
 
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Nice! Hopefully you can get out today and test. Here it is -3F, so sitting tight... Well, I did get out this morning to our r/c flying field for the first flight of the year gathering. Two of us flew planes. Didn't stay out long though ... brrrr .
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 07:43 PM   #23
 
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Shots Fired.

I got a little Range time in today.

I'll cut straight to the chase... Here's a target from 25 yards. My point of aim was center of the bull. This was the first group fired after modding the sights.



To get that group before sight mods, I would have had to aim between the "C" and the "K" in the lettering below the target.

Here's a couple pics to show what the sight looks like now.





I'm almost satisfied at this point. I would prefer for my group to be centered on the bull, and for that to happen it's going to have to come down just a little more. Not much, mind you- but it needs to be lower. Maybe two clicks?

I'm still not wanting to file on the sight blade, but faced with the idea of notching the bottom of the sight base to clear the hammer... I might file the sight blade after all.

I did manage to bust a couple of shotgun clays out on the 50 yard berm, and that was satisfying, but I think this pistol is capable of being better and I still intend to work towards that.

Also, I loaded up 45 grains of 777 with a Wonder Wad and a Hornady .457 ball. Yeah, there's some power there. The recoil was quite a bit stouter than my Pyrodex loads.

And my point of impact appeared to be higher with the 777 loads. I didn't print that load on paper at 25 yards, however. It was getting late and I shot that load at 50 on the clays. It was about 6" high.

I will research this some more, and post as I go...

Last edited by Fast Frank; January 2nd, 2017 at 07:46 PM.
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 10:56 PM   #24
 
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I just couldn't do it.

Almost satisfied is not satisfied. And I wasn't.

I took it all apart again and started cutting on it.

The Dremel just wasn't making me happy. I got out some files and proceeded to cut down the top of the frame some more.

At some point, the front part of the sight started contacting the bottom of the sight cavity... So I filed that down some too.

After hogging away at it for a while, I got down where I'm sure I can zero it now.

Of course, that left it where the hammer was smacking the sight body pretty good. I cut a slot for that too.

Here's some pics.

This is the gun as it was when I bought it.Note how much higher the sight body is above the frame of the pistol. It's screwed down as low as it will go in this pic.



Here, you can see that the sight is screwed down solid(Look at how the adjuster screw sits in the hole). Note that the top of the sight body is paralell to the frame of the pistol.



Here's the bottom of the sight. Not the prettiest work I've ever done, but it allows the sight to sit lower than before. The slot for the hammer just barely clears when the hammer swings. Maybe .005". It was touching before, so the depth of that slot is roughly how much lower the sight is now compared to when I shot the target earlier today.



The sight body is aluminum, so I used black magic marker to blacken the cut down areas.



Using cold blue to color the frame where I cut it. The right side has it's first coat and the left is bare steel. I did three coats, and it looks good.



Looking up from under the assembled sight at the slot I cut for the hammer. The hammer sticks up about .025" or .030" above the frame now. It's visible, but not really noticeable. If you didn't know it was there you probably wouldn't see the slot.



Here, you can see how much I cut off the frame. There is a sharp 90 degree corner now, and it was a radius before. Note that the top of the sight is no longer above the top of the frame, The frame and sight are roughly level now.



This pic shows how the rear part of the sight body is lower than the front. Before it was roughly level.



I need another range session to determine if it actually can be zeroed now, but I bet it can. It was close after the first cut and this should be enough to actually make the gun hit low if I want to.

If it will in fact zero, I'll be a happy camper.

I'm posting all this on the chance that somebody else might want their Old Army to shoot to the point of aim like I do. Feel free to ask questions or ask for pics to clarify anything. This wasn't hard to do and I think it's better than boogering up the sights themselves.

Last edited by Fast Frank; January 2nd, 2017 at 11:11 PM.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 04:53 PM   #25
 
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The hotter the load, the higher the impact. Reduce your load.

From the manual ...

A good starting accuracy load, using a pure lead .457” diameter ball, is 20 grains of FFFg and sufficient filler (corn meal is frequently used as a filler material) to seat the ball approximately 1/16” below the chamber mouth. You may find that some minor adjustment of this charge upwards or downwards is more accurate in your “Old Army.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 12:43 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by Frontiersman View Post
The hotter the load, the higher the impact. Reduce your load.

From the manual ...

A good starting accuracy load, using a pure lead .457” diameter ball, is 20 grains of FFFg and sufficient filler (corn meal is frequently used as a filler material) to seat the ball approximately 1/16” below the chamber mouth. You may find that some minor adjustment of this charge upwards or downwards is more accurate in your “Old Army.
Interesting.

I opened the PDF of the Old Army (I have service manuals for all my guns in PDF. Isn't technology cool?) and re-read it.

I had seen that before, but somehow didn't remember the 20 grain recommendation or the part about the filler.

The "Internet Wisdom" seems to think that 30 grains is the standard load. I don't know how or why that number came to be but it's what everybody seems to think is the "Right" load. My pistol seems to like it.

There's lots of talk about the filler on the net, too.

Some folks swear by it, and there's a lot that think it's silly. I don't have an opinion on that one yet but I will experiment with it before it's all said and done.

The fact that Ruger included this load in the manual is reason enough for me to try it.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 07:30 AM   #27
 
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The hotter the load, the higher the impact. Reduce your load...
That is true, in general, of all revolvers. The hotter load causes the barrel to pivot upward faster, when the bullet is still in the bore.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 07:45 AM   #28
 
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...There's lots of talk about the filler on the net, too.

Some folks swear by it, and there's a lot that think it's silly. I don't have an opinion on that one yet but I will experiment with it before it's all said and done...
Go back and read my post about the loading ram. The ROA's loading ram has a set distance that it will travel into the chamber. If you load a relatively small powder charge, the ram will not firmly seat the ball on the powder to compress the charge. If you know anything about blackpowder muzzleloaders, you should know it is important to firmly seat the bullet on the powder charge. Filler on top of the ball allows you to properly compress the bullet/powder stack with the stock loading ram.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 05:21 PM   #29
 
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I shoot a lot of black powder.

The purpose of the filler is to seat the ball firmly on the load and eliminate the air pocket that causes differences in pressure. BP likes to be compressed. I've never seen one blow up without a filler, but the groups are smaller. Corn meal works as a filler, but cream of wheat I have found to be less dusty.

Especially in my old colts, which have no sight adjustment, changing the load really helps me dial in.

I prefer real BP, but will use substitute when I can't find it. And of course, the load changes depending on the brand.

These are great shooters and well worth the trouble.

Last edited by Frontiersman; January 6th, 2017 at 05:57 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2017, 11:36 PM   #30
 
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Still trying to wrap my brain around all of this.

The pistol that this thread is about was shooting high.

So high, that the available adjustment of the sights would not allow it to be zeroed.

So, some folks suggested adjusting the load.

Fair enough.

I have owned a few hand guns over the years, and some of them were able to shoot a pretty wide variety of ammo. I have hand loaded .38 special loads that were pretty slow while chasing accuracy and I own a .327 magnum that can also shoot .32S&W shorts. (That's a range from 700 to 1500 FPS)

My experience with those guns leads me to believe that "Hot" loads print lower on the target than "Poof" loads.

I'm pretty sure that dwell time in the barrel is responsible for this, and the faster load gets the bullet out of the barrel before it has time to recoil. The slower load takes longer to exit and recoil has the barrel is pointed higher for the slow loads.

So- back to the pistol that shoots high...

Faster loads hit lower on the target, and I loaded 45 grains of 777 in the pistol. That's about as fast a load that's available to me.

That max load of 77 should be around 1000 FPS, and it still shot high.

So- why are we discussing 20 grain loads and fillers?

I said I would eventually experiment with it because Ruger suggested it might be more accurate. Printing small groups is a good thing and an admirable trait in a load.

But shrinking group size at the cost of a higher point of impact is not a good thing in a gun that already refuses to shoot to the point of aim.

Am I missing something here? Somebody tighten me up- I need to figure this all out!

Last edited by Fast Frank; January 6th, 2017 at 11:44 PM.
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