Bengal07

Does Ruger have any guidance regards using NATO designated ammo in their 9mm pistols---specifically the SR9 and SR9C. From what I have read it is usually 124gr, FMJ and there is dispute regards how to measure its pressure----some say it is really +P others say not, and a third group says greater than +P

tglazie

Whatever it is, Ruger's are fine with it:

From Ruger- The Ruger 9mm pistols are chambered for the 9x19mm NATO Parabellum (9mm Luger) cartridge, compatible with the U.S. and foreign military or commercial 9x19mm loads manufactured in accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards, including high-velocity, subsonic, tracer, hollow point, ammunition loaded in aluminum, steel, or brass cartridge cases, +P and +P+ ammunition.

Benemorte

The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure.[20]
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure.

Further, from Wiki:

9×19mm +P variant
Attempts to improve ballistics of the cartridge came in the early 1990s with the widespread availability of high pressure loadings of the 9 mm cartridge. Such overpressure cartridges are labeled "+P" or in the case of very high pressure loadings "+P+".[26] Ballistic performance of these rounds was moderately improved over the standard loadings. In addition, improvements in jacketed hollow point bullet technology have produced bullet designs that are more likely to expand and less likely to fragment than earlier iterations, giving a 9 mm bullet better terminal effectiveness.[21]


9 mm NATO variant
The 9 mm cartridge has been manufactured by, or for, more than 70 different countries and has become a standard pistol caliber for NATO and other military forces around the world. Its official nomenclature among NATO users is "9 mm NATO". The 9 mm NATO can be considered as an overpressure variant of the 9×19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[27] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) where C.I.P. rates the 9 mm Luger PTmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,100 psi). The 315 MPa (45,700 psi) proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm NATO proof test however equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9 mm Luger C.I.P. proof test. While the NATO standards do not specify the type of bullet to be used, the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of expanding ammunition in warfare by signatories, and therefore official 9 mm NATO ammunition is FMJ "ball" bullets. However, JAG attorneys for the U.S. military have issued opinions on the use of "open-tip" ammunition by snipers, stating that such ammunition is legal according to the laws of war including the Hague Convention ("open-tip" ammunition is still fully jacketed, and not designed to expand on impact).[28] Declaration III also does not apply in conflicts involving non-signatories to the Hague Convention.[29] Therefore, the use of expanding 9mm ammunition by U.S. and NATO forces is not prohibited by international law in the current conflict in Afghanistan.

Darkker

Well... Not really...

The 9mm Nato, commonly called the Luger, or Parabellum; All run about one pressure. NATO DOES test pressure in a different location than SAAMI does. The net operating pressures are close to the same, just "show" different numbers because of WHERE they test the pressures.

As for the +P, or +P+.
THERE IS NO STANDARD!!!
There well may be a set of guidelines that A company follows, but it is ONLY what they do.
SAAMI is who "Sets" the Maximum operating pressures for the consumer market.
So IF you go OVER that pressure it is +P, There is no scale BEYOND maximum.

So the whole notion of +P+ is rather silly, as it means NOTHING unless the ammo producer specifically tells you the pressure.
+P and +P+ is like saying:
REALLY high pressure, or REALLY REALLY high pressure.
What does REALLY REALLY tell you? Nothing.

ExArmy11b

There's really no such thing as "9mm NATO", as far as I know.

Winchester makes ammo called "9mm NATO" , I bought a bunch of it recently and it seemed the same power-wise and in all other aspects as their 9mm Parabellum FMJ "White Box" ammo. It's probably the same stuff. It's not the same as 5.56 NATO vs. .223, etc.

Plus, if our military runs "9mm NATO" through alloy frame M9 Berettas it should be fine for anything to come out of Ruger.

As a side note, when I was in the Army, and I was overseas the "issue" ammo for the PL and PSG's M9's was Federal American Eagle "red box" standard 9mm FMJ ball, yup, the same stuff you can buy at Gander Mt. There were only a few boxes of it around, so it's not like we had stockpiles of 9mm ammo, because no one ever really fired any except for an occasional "range day", i.e. screwing around with the weapons to fill some time................ So, there is no magical 9mm NATO ammo really. But, the number of rounds I put through govt. issue M9's was exactly 0, so I don't have extensive experience, just what I saw.

robertbank

What brand are you taking about? Some regular 9MM is headstamped "9MM Nato" others "9MM Para". Both would be loaded to regular specifications. Some 9MM ammo is designated for machine gun use but the boxes would be marked.

Darker nailed it. I have run some +p+ ammo over my chrono that didn\t run fasrer than Win Wite box.

Take Care

Bob

VietVet68

Read the owners manual or call them.

Dozer02

Our current military standard issued 9mm NATO ammunition is mainly supplied by Olin (Winchester). They use "M882" 124gr FMJ's rated at 1250 FPS which is slightly less than +P+ and considered to be +P ammunition which should only be fired in modern weapons designed for modern higher pressure ammunitions. Your Ruger will handle it just fine. I wouldn't advise a steady diet of it if you tend to shoot often but it's certainly safe to shoot in your Ruger. From a recoil standpoint it will hit your hands and wrists harder than standard non +P cartridges and be less enjoyable to shoot for a 4 or 500 round day at the range, unless you like more recoil (some folks do).

Darkker

No.
Ohlin owns no powder or brass cartridge plants anymore, they are a merely a chemical company now. They sold their brass bid-ness in 2007 to Global Brass.
Their plant down in St. Marks, FL is run by General Dynamics. Sold to them Around 2000.

The Radford & Lake City Arsenals are currently run by ATK, who recently signed a J.V. operations agreement with GD.

bwinters

I have fired 9 mm smg ammo in ruger semis and ruger revolvers and no problem with either.

Iowegan

QuickLOAD is a very reliable data source and has the max pressure standards and type of pressure testing measurements for all foreign and domestic commercial and NATO ammo.

Here are the max chamber pressure ratings for the 9mm:

9mm Para, SAAMI Standard, Piezo measurement from the center of the case body: 35,000 psi
9mm Para, SAAMI +P, Piezo measurement from the center of the case body: 38,500 psi
9mm Para, CIP (European equivalent of SAAMI), Piezo measurement from case mouth, 34,084 psi
9x19 NATO, Piezo measurement from case mouth, 34,084 psi

As you can see, there is indeed a specification for SAAMI +P and there is indeed a specification for 9x19 NATO, although it is exactly the same as 9mm Para CIP. There is no SAAMI standard for +P+ loads, however they are available with a slightly higher velocity.

Looking at max chamber pressure from a percent perspective;
SAAMI Standard 9mm Para = 100%
SAAMI +P 9mm para = 110%
9x19 NATO and 9mm Para CIP = 97.3%

Ballistic Explorer software shows the velocity for US made commercial ammo but not military ammo. All specifications are directly from the ammunition manufacturers.

All standard velocity 124 gr loads from several different manufacturers are rated from 1100~1110 fps from a 4" barrel. 124 gr +P ammo is rated at 1155 fps from a 4" barrel. For 115 gr bullets, the standard velocity is 1155~1167 fps from a 4" barrel. 9mm +P 115 gr loads are rated from 1225~1250 fps and 9mm +P+ 115 gr loads are rated at 1280 fps, both from 4" barrels.

Looking at velocity from a percent perspective:

124 gr SAAMI Standard = 100%
124 gr SAAMI +P = 105%

115 gr SAAMI Standard = 100%
115 gr SAAMI +P = 107%
115 gr +P+ = 110%

As you can see there is a correlation between pressure and velocity but it is not linear.

Just a note about Wikipedia ... their pressure rating for 9mm NATO is way off. QuickLOAD and several other sources rate it at 34,000~34,100 psi. Further, I have chronographed 9mm NATO 124 gr ammo and US made commercial 124 gr SAAMI standard ammo side by side in my Beretta 92FS and found both were near identical velocities. If Wiki was correct, there would be a substantial increase in velocity with 9mm NATO ammo ... which there isn't. As I recall, Israeli made 9mm machine gun ammo was rated at 36,500 psi, which correlates with Wiki's numbers. Never a dull moment with statistics.

MZ5

Let's talk about where (and how) pressures are measured. While it is widely reported that CIP measures pressures at the case mouth, this is not correct, and never has been except in rimfire cartridges. This is according to Hartmut Broemel, the writer/developer of QuickLOAD, and a person with EXTENSIVE knowledge and expertise in this professional field. See here for Hartmut's own words on the topic:
CUP vs. PSI in 5.56 NATO??? - 24hourcampfire

I'd happily link directly to CIP, but their website has been either non-functional or 'under repair/construction' for at least a couple of years now.

So, SAAMI and CIP measure piezo-electric transducer pressures in basically the SAME place, but they use different transducers in different ways, which will result in somewhat different pressure readings, and they sometimes have different somewhat different pressure limits as well. As an unrelated aside, SAAMI's pressure testing chamber/barrel diagram (see ANSI Z299.3-1993) shows that for copper crusher testing _only_, SAAMI measured pressure of the 9mm Luger at the case mouth. They don't measure in that location with a piezo-electric transducer.

NATO EPVAT measures pressures at the case mouth, but generally uses the same maximum pressure _number_ as CIP. NATO's case-mouth pressure testing location would result in the same _equipment_ showing you a lower pressure _number_ vs. SAAMI's or CIP's testing location. This means that if the stated pressure numbers were the same, the NATO ammo would be producing higher actual pressure at any given chamber or throat location.

I think it's already been covered that just because there's a certain pressure maximum in place doesn't mean that any manufacturer is producing _to_ that maximum. It simply means they _could_.

VihtaVuori, I think it was, ran a test of 9mm Luger ammunition which, under the SAAMI test procedures and equipment yielded an average pressure of 38,500 psi (SAAMI's 9mm Luger +P maximum), but which yielded an average pressure of ~37,400 psi when tested with CIP procedures and equipment. This _may_ show that the different equipment and procedures of SAAMI vs. CIP make a difference. It _may_ also not be a statistically significant difference in average pressure. I do not recall the details of the test well enough.

Iowegan

MZ5, I think you hit on the key issue ... it's just not statistically significant.

robertbank

The only differnce between 9MM Para, 9MM Nato and 9x19 is the headstamp name applied by the manufacturer. There is to my knowledge no "Nato" standard. It is also my understanding there is a standard for +P ammo but none for +P+.

Take Care

Bob

ExArmy11b

I would assume European ammunition manufacturers in Europe make their 9mm Para to NATO specs, such as Sellier and Bellot who supplies ammo to many Euro countries.

But, like was shown, 9mm NATO specs are pretty much the same as standard 9mm Parabellum.