f> 380 in real life - Ruger Forum

Ruger Forum

380 in real life

This is a discussion on 380 in real life within the Ammo Dump forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; I've watched all the" ammo quest" tests and read a lot of the thread wars over JHP vs FMJ in .380 . My question is ...


Go Back   Ruger Forum > Firearm Forum > Ammo Dump

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes

Old March 11th, 2017, 08:42 AM   #1
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: pa
Posts: 143
pennsy is on a distinguished road
380 in real life

I've watched all the" ammo quest" tests and read a lot of the thread wars over JHP vs FMJ in .380 . My question is , does anyone have any personal experience with real world situations ? Either with animals or self defense .



pennsy is offline  
Advertisements
Old March 11th, 2017, 08:58 AM   #2
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 711
Walkingwolf is a jewel in the roughWalkingwolf is a jewel in the roughWalkingwolf is a jewel in the rough
I stopped a large charging pit bull with one shot from a 9X18 FMJ. Just slightly more umpf than a 380ACP.
Walkingwolf is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 11:42 AM   #3
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: wayne nj
Posts: 23,849
bwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to behold
I pointed a walther ppks at someone trying to rob my store he fled so okay by me.
bwinters is offline  
 
Old March 11th, 2017, 01:10 PM   #4
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: pa
Posts: 143
pennsy is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwinters View Post
I pointed a walther ppks at someone trying to rob my store he fled so okay by me.
Didn't stick around to ask what caliber ?
pennsy is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 01:17 PM   #5
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CB, IA
Posts: 11,962
Iowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to behold

Awards Showcase

pennsy, Do you have a crystal ball and can you predict exactly what the conditions will be when you put your 380 Auto into service? Point is .... there is no one bullet that can be the "best" for every occasion. Before arguing about bullets, can you hit the target reliably? If not, bullet choice is not important.

Let me give you an example .... I own a Walther PPK/S, one of the best 380 Autos on the market .... or so they say. The sights are terrible and in fact might as well not even be there. Accuracy beyond 5 yards sucks real bad. Why? 380s are intended for very close encounters .... arm's reach or thereabouts. Statistically, if you are in a self defense scenario, chances are you won't be able to lift your firearm to eye level to aim without it getting batted away or taken away by the bad guy. At close distances, the 380 has enough power to get the job done no matter what the bad guy is wearing. You can safely take it a step farther and use JHPs for summer carry where clothing is lighter and FMJ for winter clothing where more penetration is needed. Even with stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible for climate, you still don't know if the bad guy is going to be big and fat or small and skinny.

As the power level of concealed carry handguns increase, the "conditions" are less important. If you have a 357 Mag revolver, it will stop a fight quickly at any distance from arm's reach to 25 yards. Just the noise and muzzle flash will likely scare off any bad guy, even if you don't hit them. And if you do hit them, clothing or fat/skinny makes very little difference.

Many years ago, the FBI published a report saying a self defense handgun should have a minimum momentum of 20 and a maximum momentum of 30. Momentum is the unit of measurement used by most ballisticians as an indicator of knock down power. Here's a chart that puts things in perspective: Ammo Momentum and Energy Chart As you can see, the best 380 cartridge comes in at 13 .... well below the minimum.

Some people contend .... a 380 Auto is better than nothing and I agree with that statement with a few caveats. First, the pistol must be carried in such a manner where it can be drawn quickly and not have to go through gyrations to put it into service ... like jacking the slide or cocking a hammer. At most, you want to sweep the safety off a loaded pistol as you draw it from a holster. Your most likely body position is standing or sitting so a hip holster is about the only carry method that works reliably. If you are too alerting when you try to dig your pistol out of your pants pocket, all of a sudden you become the bad guy's immediate threat and will likely get shot. Pocket carry or most any other method other than a good holster, can put you in a position where you wish you would have left your pistol at home. Even if you can get a shot off .... it better be disabling or the bad guy will eat your lunch.

So ... it's not about ammo, it's about many things that puts your life in jeopardy should the need ever arise where you have to defend yourself. When I carry, my Colt Commander (45 ACP) is on my hip, cocked, locked and loaded .... ready to go into service within a couple seconds at most. With my many years of intense training,
if I ever did have to shoot someone, I feel confident that I would come out on top.
Iowegan is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 01:40 PM   #6
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: pa
Posts: 143
pennsy is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
pennsy, Do you have a crystal ball and can you predict exactly what the conditions will be when you put your 380 Auto into service? Point is .... there is no one bullet that can be the "best" for every occasion. Before arguing about bullets, can you hit the target reliably? If not, bullet choice is not important.

Let me give you an example .... I own a Walther PPK/S, one of the best 380 Autos on the market .... or so they say. The sights are terrible and in fact might as well not even be there. Accuracy beyond 5 yards sucks real bad. Why? 380s are intended for very close encounters .... arm's reach or thereabouts. Statistically, if you are in a self defense scenario, chances are you won't be able to lift your firearm to eye level to aim without it getting batted away or taken away by the bad guy. At close distances, the 380 has enough power to get the job done no matter what the bad guy is wearing. You can safely take it a step farther and use JHPs for summer carry where clothing is lighter and FMJ for winter clothing where more penetration is needed. Even with stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible for climate, you still don't know if the bad guy is going to be big and fat or small and skinny.

As the power level of concealed carry handguns increase, the "conditions" are less important. If you have a 357 Mag revolver, it will stop a fight quickly at any distance from arm's reach to 25 yards. Just the noise and muzzle flash will likely scare off any bad guy, even if you don't hit them. And if you do hit them, clothing or fat/skinny makes very little difference.

Many years ago, the FBI published a report saying a self defense handgun should have a minimum momentum of 20 and a maximum momentum of 30. Momentum is the unit of measurement used by most ballisticians as an indicator of knock down power. Here's a chart that puts things in perspective: Ammo Momentum and Energy Chart As you can see, the best 380 cartridge comes in at 13 .... well below the minimum.

Some people contend .... a 380 Auto is better than nothing and I agree with that statement with a few caveats. First, the pistol must be carried in such a manner where it can be drawn quickly and not have to go through gyrations to put it into service ... like jacking the slide or cocking a hammer. At most, you want to sweep the safety off a loaded pistol as you draw it from a holster. Your most likely body position is standing or sitting so a hip holster is about the only carry method that works reliably. If you are too alerting when you try to dig your pistol out of your pants pocket, all of a sudden you become the bad guy's immediate threat and will likely get shot. Pocket carry or most any other method other than a good holster, can put you in a position where you wish you would have left your pistol at home. Even if you can get a shot off .... it better be disabling or the bad guy will eat your lunch.

So ... it's not about ammo, it's about many things that puts your life in jeopardy should the need ever arise where you have to defend yourself. When I carry, my Colt Commander (45 ACP) is on my hip, cocked, locked and loaded .... ready to go into service within a couple seconds at most. With my many years of intense training,
if I ever did have to shoot someone, I feel confident that I would come out on top.
Thanks for your insight . I know shoot placement is king and lately I have been just carrying FMJ in .380 .

Last edited by pennsy; March 11th, 2017 at 03:17 PM.
pennsy is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 03:33 PM   #7
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: wayne nj
Posts: 23,849
bwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to behold
ppk

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsy View Post
Didn't stick around to ask what caliber ?
no he did not.
bwinters is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 03:36 PM   #8
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: wayne nj
Posts: 23,849
bwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to beholdbwinters is a splendid one to behold
ppk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
pennsy, Do you have a crystal ball and can you predict exactly what the conditions will be when you put your 380 Auto into service? Point is .... there is no one bullet that can be the "best" for every occasion. Before arguing about bullets, can you hit the target reliably? If not, bullet choice is not important.

Let me give you an example .... I own a Walther PPK/S, one of the best 380 Autos on the market .... or so they say. The sights are terrible and in fact might as well not even be there. Accuracy beyond 5 yards sucks real bad. Why? 380s are intended for very close encounters .... arm's reach or thereabouts. Statistically, if you are in a self defense scenario, chances are you won't be able to lift your firearm to eye level to aim without it getting batted away or taken away by the bad guy. At close distances, the 380 has enough power to get the job done no matter what the bad guy is wearing. You can safely take it a step farther and use JHPs for summer carry where clothing is lighter and FMJ for winter clothing where more penetration is needed. Even with stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible for climate, you still don't know if the bad guy is going to be big and fat or small and skinny.

As the power level of concealed carry handguns increase, the "conditions" are less important. If you have a 357 Mag revolver, it will stop a fight quickly at any distance from arm's reach to 25 yards. Just the noise and muzzle flash will likely scare off any bad guy, even if you don't hit them. And if you do hit them, clothing or fat/skinny makes very little difference.

Many years ago, the FBI published a report saying a self defense handgun should have a minimum momentum of 20 and a maximum momentum of 30. Momentum is the unit of measurement used by most ballisticians as an indicator of knock down power. Here's a chart that puts things in perspective: Ammo Momentum and Energy Chart As you can see, the best 380 cartridge comes in at 13 .... well below the minimum.

Some people contend .... a 380 Auto is better than nothing and I agree with that statement with a few caveats. First, the pistol must be carried in such a manner where it can be drawn quickly and not have to go through gyrations to put it into service ... like jacking the slide or cocking a hammer. At most, you want to sweep the safety off a loaded pistol as you draw it from a holster. Your most likely body position is standing or sitting so a hip holster is about the only carry method that works reliably. If you are too alerting when you try to dig your pistol out of your pants pocket, all of a sudden you become the bad guy's immediate threat and will likely get shot. Pocket carry or most any other method other than a good holster, can put you in a position where you wish you would have left your pistol at home. Even if you can get a shot off .... it better be disabling or the bad guy will eat your lunch.

So ... it's not about ammo, it's about many things that puts your life in jeopardy should the need ever arise where you have to defend yourself. When I carry, my Colt Commander (45 ACP) is on my hip, cocked, locked and loaded .... ready to go into service within a couple seconds at most. With my many years of intense training,
if I ever did have to shoot someone, I feel confident that I would come out on top.
I could do 6 inches at 40 feet with my ppks with any ammo that was decent. As a store owner 40 feet would be a long shot.
bwinters is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 03:52 PM   #9
 
paulkalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: everett wa
Posts: 1,244
paulkalman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsy View Post
I've watched all the" ammo quest" tests and read a lot of the thread wars over JHP vs FMJ in .380 . My question is , does anyone have any personal experience with real world situations ? Either with animals or self defense .
I chose 3 of the top xtp rounds from ammo quest and shot both pork shoulder and butts with and without 4 layers of 16oz denim. All of them penetrated deeply enough and broke bone to boot with no denim and two of them over penetrated (went out the back side) with the third hanging up in the shoulder joint. From that and the training I gave my daughter, I think she would come out on top with her glock 42. not as good as shooting a perp but as close as I am comfortable with.
paulkalman is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 03:54 PM   #10
 
TeaDub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: OTP Atlanta
Posts: 625
TeaDub will become famous soon enough
I have a personal acquaintance that used a 380 successfully in a robbery attempt. He used one of the rounds that most of the gel testers dismiss out of hand as being "worthless". The Remington Golden Saber.

The barrel was a bit longer than most pocket guns (Beretta Cheetah) and he didn't fire just once. He shot the robber three times and he dropped like a rock. The robber was a pretty big guy too. This was a business hold-up and I was able to see the store camera footage after the fact.

A data point of one. I've also read of Police shootings where the bad guy was hit solidly with multiple 45 ACP rounds and kept fighting.

Practice with what you carry. Alot. Then never give up when things go sideways.
TeaDub is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 04:02 PM   #11
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 9
mooney7882v is on a distinguished road
A couple of things come to mind, first, well placed rounds of a hot, fast .380 with modern bullets are more effective than some would want to admit and second even a big slow .45 slug against someone on chemical assistance or not well placed may not end the fight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mooney7882v is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #12
 
laidlerj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Unoccupied Oregon
Posts: 5,371
laidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud of
I've a few people shot with .380s and the thing I've noticed most often is that hollow point bullets typically fail to expand or expand very poorly. The only .380 bullet I've seen expand properly is Hornady's Critical Defense (identifiable by the red plastic plug found at surgery) but penetration is often marginal with expanding bullets.

I carry a .380 in the summer or when social occasions require that I dress accordingly.

No handgun caliber can claim to give "one shot stops" - I've seen people shot by everything from .25 ACP to .50 AE (not yet seen a .500 S&W), and many of them were able to run away even though they eventually died of their wounds. Fortunately, the mere display of a gun is usually more than enough to make the average mugger move on to easier pickings.


Jim
laidlerj is offline  
Old March 11th, 2017, 04:53 PM   #13
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: pa
Posts: 143
pennsy is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by laidlerj View Post
I've a few people shot with .380s and the thing I've noticed most often is that hollow point bullets typically fail to expand or expand very poorly. The only .380 bullet I've seen expand properly is Hornady's Critical Defense (identifiable by the red plastic plug found at surgery) but penetration is often marginal with expanding bullets.

I carry a .380 in the summer or when social occasions require that I dress accordingly.

No handgun caliber can claim to give "one shot stops" - I've seen people shot by everything from .25 ACP to .50 AE (not yet seen a .500 S&W), and many of them were able to run away even though they eventually died of their wounds. Fortunately, the mere display of a gun is usually more than enough to make the average mugger move on to easier pickings.


Jim
Are you a doctor or nurse?
pennsy is offline  
Old March 12th, 2017, 07:36 AM   #14
 
laidlerj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Unoccupied Oregon
Posts: 5,371
laidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud oflaidlerj has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsy View Post
Are you a doctor or nurse?
Doctor. These days I work in various emergency rooms around the area.

Jim
laidlerj is offline  
Old March 12th, 2017, 08:21 AM   #15
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
 
Iowegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CB, IA
Posts: 11,962
Iowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to beholdIowegan is a splendid one to behold

Awards Showcase

Lets try to put things in perspective with the FBI data that was issued back in the 80's.

The percent rating is the likelihood of a one round center mass "fight stopper" .... not necessarily a knock down or a kill shot.

22 LR 10%
380 Auto and 32 Auto 25%
9mm and 38 Special 45%
44 Special 75%
357 Mag and 45 Auto 85%
10mm Auto 90%

So .... when my life or the lives of my family members are at risk, do I want a gun that only provides 25% effectiveness? No, I want to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible. If you look at the above reference: Ammo Momentum and Energy Chart, you will see a direct correlation between momentum and effectiveness.

With handguns, there are probably more exceptions to the rule than there are rules as far as survivable wounds. I'm sure laidlerj can expound on that. I read an article that said more people die from 22 LR gun shot wounds than any other cartridge. I don't know if it is true but assuming it is .... does that make a 22 LR with a 10% effectiveness is the best self defense caliber? I think not. The same applies to a 380 Auto with a mere 25% effectiveness.

As for hollow point expansion .... due to the metallurgy used in jacketed bullets, it takes a minimum of 1000 fps at the target for a bullet to reliably expand. If the bad guy is 25 yards away, that means the bullet must exit the muzzle at speed much higher than 1000 fps. It's very hard to find a 380 Auto bullet that hits with a velocity of 1000 fps so expansion is unlikely except at very close range.
Iowegan is offline  
Closed Thread

  Ruger Forum > Firearm Forum > Ammo Dump

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Ruger Forum Discussions
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Real Life Consequences of a Negligent Discharge. jjhmachine Gun Stories 26 April 21st, 2014 06:47 AM

Top Gun Sites Top Sites List
Powered by vBulletin 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
Copyright © 2006 - 2017 Ruger Forum. All rights reserved.
Ruger Forum is a Ruger Firearms enthusiast's forum, but it is in no way affiliated with, nor does it represent Sturm Ruger & Company Inc. of Southport, CT.