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380 in real life

This is a discussion on 380 in real life within the Ammo Dump forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Have to go back a ways, but know of a person shot point blank in the mouth with a 4 inch barreled revolver. 38 special ...


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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:27 PM   #31
 
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Have to go back a ways, but know of a person shot point blank in the mouth with a 4 inch barreled revolver. 38 special that was really underpowered. In fact, the entire lot of ammo was destroyed for failing to produce. Good old AF days. The victim lost three teeth and his voice for a while. He was oriental and the AF fixed him right up. Our gate guard shot their gate guard.

Like others, I am convinced it is shot placement and a lot of luck. I carry my Solo as opposed to my 380 for deep cover situations.



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Old March 13th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #32
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Pennsy I was a law enforcement firearms instructor and will be the first to tell you that you never depend on one shot stopping a person that is attacking you. We taught the officers to use double or triple taps as fast as you can deliver those 2-3 shots into the vital area of the body.
we also taught the "zipper" which is two fast shots into the torso and the third into the head if the first two did not drop the suspect because he might be wearing body armor. If the head is moving too much go for the groin area, bigger easy target to hit, as most bullets striking the pelvic bone in that area will drop a human to the floor.

My everyday carry firearm is a Colt defender in 45ACP, but when that is too hard to conceal due to what clothing I am wearing, I drop a 380 backup into my front pants pocket with a pocket holster. The 380 will do the job up close and dirty, just do not shoot once and wait and see if that shot drops the attacker, instead give him a fast double or triple tap and hope you do not have 4 or 5 guys attacking you as you may run out of ammo.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 08:07 AM   #33
 
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Pennsy I was a law enforcement firearms instructor and will be the first to tell you that you never depend on one shot stopping a person that is attacking you. We taught the officers to use double or triple taps as fast as you can deliver those 2-3 shots into the vital area of the body.
we also taught the "zipper" which is two fast shots into the torso and the third into the head if the first two did not drop the suspect because he might be wearing body armor. If the head is moving too much go for the groin area, bigger easy target to hit, as most bullets striking the pelvic bone in that area will drop a human to the floor.

My everyday carry firearm is a Colt defender in 45ACP, but when that is too hard to conceal due to what clothing I am wearing, I drop a 380 backup into my front pants pocket with a pocket holster. The 380 will do the job up close and dirty, just do not shoot once and wait and see if that shot drops the attacker, instead give him a fast double or triple tap and hope you do not have 4 or 5 guys attacking you as you may run out of ammo.
What load do you use?
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:50 AM   #34
 
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Real-life study by Ellifritz: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

If you do your part, just about any caliber will do its part.

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Old March 14th, 2017, 12:06 PM   #35
 
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Originally Posted by JohnR2 View Post
Real-life study by Ellifritz: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

If you do your part, just about any caliber will do its part.


Interesting article, I'm sure some of the resident know-it-alls will disagree with it though.

But I'm with ya, you do your part, let the gun do the rest.



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Old March 14th, 2017, 12:09 PM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by JohnR2 View Post
Real-life study by Ellifritz: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

If you do your part, just about any caliber will do its part.

Damn, they left out the number of stops dialing 911...

First rule of a gunfight. Have a gun.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 07:02 PM   #37
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JohnR2, Your chart has absolutely no credibility .... the FBI chart does. The FBI certainly doesn't rate a 32 higher than any other handgun or a 357 Mag higher than a 44 Mag. I'm sorry but this chart totally defies common sense and science alike.

In order of the above presentation with a few additions, here's what the FBI says:
25 ACP less than 10%
22 LR 10%
32 Auto and 380 Auto 25%
38 Special and 9mm 45%
44 Special 75%
40 S&W 80%
357 Mag and 45 ACP 85%
10mm Auto 90%
44 Mag 95%

If you look at a momentum chart for the above cartridges, it fully supports the same concept as the FBI chart.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 03:56 AM   #38
 
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From the article in which the data was presented.

" I also believe the data for the .25, .32 and .44 magnum should be viewed with suspicion. I simply don't have enough data (in comparison to the other calibers) to draw an accurate comparison. I reported the data I have, but I really don't believe that a .32 ACP incapacitates people at a higher rate than the .45 ACP!"

and - - -

"What I believe that my numbers show is that in the majority of shootings, the person shot merely gives up without being truly incapacitated by the bullet. In such an event, almost any bullet will perform admirably. If you want to be prepared to deal with someone who won't give up so easily, or you want to be able to have good performance even after shooting through an intermediate barrier, I would skip carrying the "mouse gun" .22s, .25s and .32s."

Sometimes reading the article/report rather than just picking out raw data is worthwhile. If you read the discussion and conclusion of the data collected I think the author did a good job of analyzing his data. I won't put words in his mouth by trying to further summarize his article here, but rather encourage those interested to actually read the article.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 04:28 AM   #39
 
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Originally Posted by Bill B View Post
From the article in which the data was presented.

" I also believe the data for the .25, .32 and .44 magnum should be viewed with suspicion. I simply don't have enough data (in comparison to the other calibers) to draw an accurate comparison. I reported the data I have, but I really don't believe that a .32 ACP incapacitates people at a higher rate than the .45 ACP!"

and - - -

"What I believe that my numbers show is that in the majority of shootings, the person shot merely gives up without being truly incapacitated by the bullet. In such an event, almost any bullet will perform admirably. If you want to be prepared to deal with someone who won't give up so easily, or you want to be able to have good performance even after shooting through an intermediate barrier, I would skip carrying the "mouse gun" .22s, .25s and .32s."

Sometimes reading the article/report rather than just picking out raw data is worthwhile. If you read the discussion and conclusion of the data collected I think the author did a good job of analyzing his data. I won't put words in his mouth by trying to further summarize his article here, but rather encourage those interested to actually read the article.
And like he says, if you don't like his data, collect your own.

The FBI data is often criticized by respected people in the firearms community, too.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 05:03 AM   #40
 
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The FBI chart is based solely on paper, no real life/reality that I can see. Real life does not always mimic what is written on paper. FBI is the same agency that gave Glocks a bad rating, yet issued them to their agents. The same agency that cleared Hillary Clinton.

I rarely base my day to day life on anything from anybody else. I base on my own opinions of what I have learned throughout my life. For me, and me only any gun is better than no gun. AND I personally would not want to get shot with any caliber, and if I can run, and get away I will. Survey of inmates in Fl, I will see if I can find the study, made it very clear that criminals do not want to target a person with a gun. They fear getting shot.

Let us all keep in mind that a criminal will react differently to a citizen with a gun. The citizen is not trying to arrest them, but survive. That is what carry for many of us is all about, not hyperbole stopping power, just survive.

A 1985 Department of Justice survey of incarcerated felons reported that 57 percent of felons polled agreed that “criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.” Did I read that correctly? The perps were more concerned about running into “an armed victim” than running into a cop?

Any other information in that area available? According to U.S. News & World Report, “Researcher Gary Kleck found that 92 percent of criminal attacks are deterred when a gun is merely shown (or, rarely, a warning shot fired). By inference, this means that open carry would have the effect of deterring crime in the same way that a thief might choose another restaurant when he sees police eating at his intended target.”

Would the knowledge that potential victims are armed prevent attacks in day-to-day living?

“In 1982, the Atlanta suburb Kennesaw required all households to have a gun. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole,” according to U.S. News & World Report. “Ten years later the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than when the ordinance was passed” (emphasis added).

And according to another report, Matt Gaetz said in a press conference in 2015, “It is important to note that in the states that allow open carry, violent crime was 23% lower, the murder rate was 5% lower, the aggravated assault rate was 23% lower and robbery rates were 36% lower.”


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/06/57-of-cri...Wpfsw4LQTyr.99
http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cli...305AttachB.pdf

Last edited by Walkingwolf; March 15th, 2017 at 05:32 AM.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 06:30 AM   #41
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You can manipulate statistics any way you want but if you really want to protect yourself and your loved ones, at least take a look at reality.

No doubt, firearms are a deterrent .... no one in their right mind wants to get shot with a 22, let alone a gun intended for self defense. The phrase "in their right mind" is important too .... drugs, mental cases, or even a bad temper can trump the fear of a firearm. Fear alone does not stop someone from being attacked or a theft ... or any other illegal activity .... if it did, our crime rate would be zero. Further, in most cases, the bad guy doesn't know you are armed until you draw your weapon .... at least that's the way it is supposed to work.

If you look at the FBI chart, you will see ... no caliber rates a perfect 100%. This means even though it is 95% unlikely, someone could actually survive a center mass hit from a 44 Mag and live to tell about it. Meantime the bad guy may be able to retaliate and return fire .... at least temporarily. The same holds true on the other end of the spectrum .... a person hit with a 22 LR may die on the spot. These things can and do happen but the most likely outcome is based on statistical averages.

Just an FYI .... I spent 20 years, one month, and 17 days with the US DOJ .... the parent organization for the FBI. I know they have some smart people because I worked with them on a daily basis. I also know when politics enters the formula, credibility goes down the tubes. That said, it's hard for me to connect the dots when you refuse to believe a ballistics chart generated in the 90's because "they let Hillary go" in 2016. I can assure you, the FBI ballisticians that collected data and generated reports have absolutely nothing to do with Hillary. At last count, there were 13,598 special agents and 21,746 support and professional staff .... it's not just a couple guys that do it all.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 06:58 AM   #42
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Walkingwolf, The FBI based their reports on several years of emergency room gun shot victim reports as well as autopsies. You can't get much more "real life" than that.

I stated "Stacking the odds in your favor is the best thing you can do". This means choosing a firearm with enough momentum to get the job done, using the proper holsters and ancillary equipment like a spare magazine or speed loader pouch, training with your equipment until reactions are automatic, and keeping your skills honed. If your equipment doesn't work for you, buy something that will. Don't risk your life or the life of a loved one because you got stubborn and didn't face reality."

I suspect the last sentence may apply to you.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 07:15 AM   #43
 
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Originally Posted by jollyman View Post
Have to go back a ways, but know of a person shot point blank in the mouth with a 4 inch barreled revolver. 38 special that was really underpowered. In fact, the entire lot of ammo was destroyed for failing to produce. Good old AF days. The victim lost three teeth and his voice for a while. He was oriental and the AF fixed him right up. Our gate guard shot their gate guard.

Like others, I am convinced it is shot placement and a lot of luck. I carry my Solo as opposed to my 380 for deep cover situations.
I remember that pathetic 130 grn Ball round. Carried it for many of my jobs in my 20 years. Since I primarily worked in an indoor secure enviornment we figured the concussion from our 2 inch barrels would almost effect as the bullet. Trouble is that hurts at both ends.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 08:35 AM   #44
 
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My question is , does anyone have any personal experience with real world situations ?
I have had two situations where some miscreants have either tried to break in, or did gain entry. In both cases they were greeted by the business end of a pistol, one .38 & one .32. In both cases they decided it was a better option to leave than get shot.
I understand that a more powerful round has better knock down ability, but have carried a .22 and not felt under gunned. Having said that, I practice. I recently qualified with a two inch Ruger SP101 in .357, and my instructor commented that I placed every round where I was instructed to put it. I noted I had better shot placement on average than most folks that were using full sized autos.
Like Alfred E. Newman said, what, me worry? Let's see how many recognize that quote.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 09:42 AM   #45
 
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I am old enough to remember "What me worry?" . And I rarely do worry. There are bad potential scenarios, but preparation is my answer to worry. Of course it is impossible to prepare for every risk, but I do what I reasonably can and then leave it in God's hands. And awareness and avoidance is still my main preparation, but have recently improved my self defense response preparation. I am no expert but can quickly and accurately put 357 rounds on target at 10 yards. And as a past lifeguard I have responded effectively in a couple of real life emergencies, so that gives me some comfort that my training will be followed if I ever encounter a real life scenario which requires me to draw. So practice, practice, practice with the most powerful caliber that you can shoot confidently on target.
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