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380 in real life

This is a discussion on 380 in real life within the Ammo Dump forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by laidlerj Doctor. These days I work in various emergency rooms around the area. Jim Thanks Jim . Can't get any more real ...


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Old March 12th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #16
 
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Doctor. These days I work in various emergency rooms around the area.

Jim
Thanks Jim . Can't get any more real world than that . Is it true that a HP acts as a FMJ if it does not expand as far as penetration is concern ? I would guess that it would break up after hitting bone where as FMJ may continue on .



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Old March 12th, 2017, 09:36 AM   #17
 
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Keep in mind that the bad guy will probably not ask you the caliber when you point it at them. There are no levels of dead, dead is just dead, whether from old age, or being hit by a Mack truck. When your dead, you are dead. Most people do not want to get shot, not even by a pellet gun, and if they are shot by accounts it hurts. A 22 short/lr has been used by farmers for years to dispatch livestock. A 22 short to the noggin is going to stop faster than a .500 S&W to the pinkie.

My major concern with any round is that it has a reputation to be reliable. It needs to go boom when the FP strikes the primer, and reliably feed, and eject. Some calibers are known to have better functioning qualities than others. I tend to trust straight walled cases over tapered. Slow moving heavy cast over fancy HP's. I mostly ignore marketing, remember that the 1849 Colt Pocket Pistol was one of the most popular handguns of it's time for carry, about equal to 22 ballistics.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 09:37 AM   #18
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pennsy, The Momentum charts do not differentiate between FMJ or JHP for this very reason .... JHP do not always open up. In fact the lower the velocity, the less chance a JHP has of expanding.

All those gun magazine articles about bullet expansion in ballistic gel are way over stated. If I ever found a wet phone book or block of ballistic gel that truly simulated a human body, I might believe the results. Human bodies are made of fat, muscle, flesh, organs, bones, and cartilage so it all depends on what path the bullet takes as to how much damage is inflicted and how disabling the would channel will be. If the volume of the wound channel is the same, it really doesn't make any difference what bullet was used. The wounds seen in an emergency room are not a good measure of the effectiveness of a cartridge. Yes, a person may die from a 22 LR wound but how long does it take and what retaliation can the bad guy do while he is bleeding out. Point is .... there's a lot to be said about a disabling shot from a 357 Mag, 44 Special, or 45 ACP.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 10:13 AM   #19
 
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I met a guy about 20 years ago who was, during a robbery, shot in the head with a 380. He is still carrying that bullet in his head today.......go figure.

I know a tact team officer who shot a guy at 10 feet in the head with a 40 S&W, that guy is still alive too.

Strange things happen when you get shot.



Here Kitty Kitty
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Old March 12th, 2017, 10:34 AM   #20
 
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I met a guy about 20 years ago who was, during a robbery, shot in the head with a 380. He is still carrying that bullet in his head today.......go figure.

I know a tact team officer who shot a guy at 10 feet in the head with a 40 S&W, that guy is still alive too.

Strange things happen when you get shot.



Here Kitty Kitty
Gabby Giffords was shot in the head with the great 9mm, she is still walking, and talking today. I worked in a slaughter house part time when younger, I just went in to work on the kill days. I never had a cow, or hog not drop immediately from a single 22lr shot to the skull.

If in a SD shooting I would not care if a person died, or fell flat to the ground, just as long as they stop. I train for the smallest target I can hit at the ranges most likely to be encountered. Targets are no larger than a paper plate, sometimes cans, or bottles. I also grew up with a replica of a 1849 and took small game with that gun on the farm. Feral pigs are hunted by some with 22 pellet rifles successfully with one shot stops. It is all where you put the chunk of lead.

Practice, practice, practice.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 01:54 PM   #21
 
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......

With handguns, there are probably more exceptions to the rule than there are rules as far as survivable wounds. I'm sure laidlerj can expound on that. I read an article that said more people die from 22 LR gun shot wounds than any other cartridge. I don't know if it is true but assuming it is .... does that make a 22 LR with a 10% effectiveness is the best self defense caliber? I think not. The same applies to a 380 Auto with a mere 25% effectiveness.

......

More people die from .22 LR wounds because more people are shot with them. The same goes for the current (in my neighborhood) #2: the 9mm. Until recently, local gangsters (sorry, that should be "gangstas") were under the mistaken impression that the 9mm could penetrate police body armor (it might, if the police were still wearing the old NIJ level 1A armor), so the caliber of choice was the 9mm - now, it's the 40 S&W, but a lot of "gangstas" haven't upgraded yet.

I don't want to get into a caliber clash, but the biggest problem with the smaller calibers - .25 ACP, .32 auto and .380 - is penetration. I've actually seen people shot in the head by a .25 ACP at conversational range who required no more medical attention than a bandaid and an aspirin. For that reason, some folks recommend using FMJ bullelts with the .25 and .32 (and some include the .380). As for hollow points, most will not expand at micropistol velocities and those that do, their penetration is questionable.

About a year ago, I saw a portly fellow shot six times at hand-shake distance with a .380 loaded with Hornady's Critical Defense ammo; the bullets expanded beautifully but none of them penetrated the abdominal muscles. I'm sure that took the fight out of him, but he was able to run six blocks before collapsing (probably from chest pain - he didn't look like he got much exercise) and he was never in any danger of dying, except maybe from infection. He could have easily fought his attacker even after being shot.


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Thanks Jim . Can't get any more real world than that . Is it true that a HP acts as a FMJ if it does not expand as far as penetration is concern ? I would guess that it would break up after hitting bone where as FMJ may continue on .
Yes. Sort of. Some of the softer HPs will expand enough to slow them down and limit penetration. See above for more information.


Jim
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Old March 12th, 2017, 02:55 PM   #22
 
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More people die from .22 LR wounds because more people are shot with them. The same goes for the current (in my neighborhood) #2: the 9mm. Until recently, local gangsters (sorry, that should be "gangstas") were under the mistaken impression that the 9mm could penetrate police body armor (it might, if the police were still wearing the old NIJ level 1A armor), so the caliber of choice was the 9mm - now, it's the 40 S&W, but a lot of "gangstas" haven't upgraded yet.

I don't want to get into a caliber clash, but the biggest problem with the smaller calibers - .25 ACP, .32 auto and .380 - is penetration. I've actually seen people shot in the head by a .25 ACP at conversational range who required no more medical attention than a bandaid and an aspirin. For that reason, some folks recommend using FMJ bullelts with the .25 and .32 (and some include the .380). As for hollow points, most will not expand at micropistol velocities and those that do, their penetration is questionable.

About a year ago, I saw a portly fellow shot six times at hand-shake distance with a .380 loaded with Hornady's Critical Defense ammo; the bullets expanded beautifully but none of them penetrated the abdominal muscles. I'm sure that took the fight out of him, but he was able to run six blocks before collapsing (probably from chest pain - he didn't look like he got much exercise) and he was never in any danger of dying, except maybe from infection. He could have easily fought his attacker even after being shot.




Yes. Sort of. Some of the softer HPs will expand enough to slow them down and limit penetration. See above for more information.


Jim
Thanks again. Sounds like a ruff section of town where you work.
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Old March 12th, 2017, 04:20 PM   #23
 
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It's better to be safe than sorry, get one of these for CCW.

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Old March 12th, 2017, 05:02 PM   #24
 
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Thanks again. Sounds like a ruff section of town where you work.
Nah! It's Portland, Oregon - even the worst neighborhoods here can't compare to where I trained (south Chicago) or where I served in the Army. Like most cities of any size, we have gangs and also non-gang people who rob and shoot each other.

Just because you live in a nice area doesn't mean there won't be violence - just look at what's happened at the White House, with crazy people jumping over the walls.

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Old March 12th, 2017, 05:04 PM   #25
 
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It's better to be safe than sorry, get one of these for CCW.

I don't think you'd need to worry about finding a speed-loader for that beast; if you manage to shoot it empty, I doubt you'd have the strength left to reload it.


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Old March 12th, 2017, 05:30 PM   #26
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After I retired from DOJ, the best thing I did was to attend an excellent civilian firearms self defense class in Phoenix, AZ. Prior to taking the class, I had carried a Colt Commander as a duty gun, holstered in a high ride hip holster. The equipment was fine but the "shoot .... don't shoot" scenario was totally different than when I was carrying a badge.

The first thing I learned was accessibility. In a nutshell, if you can't get to your weapon quickly and in a non-alerting manner, you probably shouldn't carry it. We practiced marksmanship a lot but later in the class we learned all the hoopla about shot placement was way overstated. In reality, you probably won't have a chance to aim your firearm. At best you will point and fire and at worst you will just fire and hope for the best. Why? The threat is simply not there legally until the bad guy is under 15 yards and closing. In the few seconds it takes a well trained person to draw, the aggressive bad guy has closed the gap to arm's reach. If you decided to draw and shoot with the bad guy at 15 yards or farther, there's probably not a court in the nation that wouldn't find you guilty of a felony firearms charge at minimum or murder at maximum. What you DON'T want is the wrong person going to jail or getting shot.

Every time I go to the range I still practice 2-shot drills from a draw using my Colt Commander or one of my 4" revolvers. I'm getting a bit rusty but I can still draw and shoot 2 rounds and hit center mass at 5 yards in less than 3 seconds. I can also draw and shoot one round from the hip in a second or less .... also a center mass 5 yard hit. The problem with this type of marksmanship practice is .... most public ranges won't let you do draw and fire drills. Standing flat footed and aiming at a bullseye is fun but it certainly doesn't address the real threat like draw and fire drills. So when people say it's all about shot placement, those people have never had a real self defense experience.

As I noted in an earlier post, stacking the odds in your favor is the best thing you can do. This means choosing a firearm with enough momentum to get the job done, using the proper holsters and ancillary equipment like a spare magazine or speed loader pouch, training with your equipment until reactions are automatic, and keeping your skills honed. If your equipment doesn't work for you, buy something that will. Don't risk your life or the life of a loved one because you got stubborn and didn't face reality.
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Old March 13th, 2017, 12:16 PM   #27
 
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You all were saying. Mute the bad music but this is why I choose to carry the XTP bullet.



Ps, I don't know why the FBI chose 4 layers of denim as the cloth media, everyone knows it should be a hoodie and a T-shirt.

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Old March 13th, 2017, 01:35 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
After I retired from DOJ, the best thing I did was to attend an excellent civilian firearms self defense class in Phoenix, AZ. Prior to taking the class, I had carried a Colt Commander as a duty gun, holstered in a high ride hip holster. The equipment was fine but the "shoot .... don't shoot" scenario was totally different than when I was carrying a badge.

The first thing I learned was accessibility. In a nutshell, if you can't get to your weapon quickly and in a non-alerting manner, you probably shouldn't carry it. We practiced marksmanship a lot but later in the class we learned all the hoopla about shot placement was way overstated. In reality, you probably won't have a chance to aim your firearm. At best you will point and fire and at worst you will just fire and hope for the best. Why? The threat is simply not there legally until the bad guy is under 15 yards and closing. In the few seconds it takes a well trained person to draw, the aggressive bad guy has closed the gap to arm's reach. If you decided to draw and shoot with the bad guy at 15 yards or farther, there's probably not a court in the nation that wouldn't find you guilty of a felony firearms charge at minimum or murder at maximum. What you DON'T want is the wrong person going to jail or getting shot.

Every time I go to the range I still practice 2-shot drills from a draw using my Colt Commander or one of my 4" revolvers. I'm getting a bit rusty but I can still draw and shoot 2 rounds and hit center mass at 5 yards in less than 3 seconds. I can also draw and shoot one round from the hip in a second or less .... also a center mass 5 yard hit. The problem with this type of marksmanship practice is .... most public ranges won't let you do draw and fire drills. Standing flat footed and aiming at a bullseye is fun but it certainly doesn't address the real threat like draw and fire drills. So when people say it's all about shot placement, those people have never had a real self defense experience.

As I noted in an earlier post, stacking the odds in your favor is the best thing you can do. This means choosing a firearm with enough momentum to get the job done, using the proper holsters and ancillary equipment like a spare magazine or speed loader pouch, training with your equipment until reactions are automatic, and keeping your skills honed. If your equipment doesn't work for you, buy something that will. Don't risk your life or the life of a loved one because you got stubborn and didn't face reality.
So do you typically carry on the hip with a cover garment?
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Old March 13th, 2017, 02:29 PM   #29
 
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You all were saying. Mute the bad music but this is why I choose to carry the XTP bullet.



Ps, I don't know why the FBI chose 4 layers of denim as the cloth media, everyone knows it should be a hoodie and a T-shirt.
Good video, glad to see they used flesh instead of gel, they just need to add some ribs for bones, and a grill for dinner.

What it boils down to is personal choice. Now the OP did ask for advice, and will probably be just as confused after the advice.

My advice is carry something, want to carry a pocket Coonan in 357 go for it. Not sure they make one, but why not a Desert Eagle. Or if the only thing you can comfortably carry is a 380, just carry something.

Ohh, and learn how to use it in case you actually need it.
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Old March 13th, 2017, 06:09 PM   #30
 
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I recently did a whole bunch of reading about the 1986 Miami FBI shootout (we had a big thread about it over on defensivecarry.com).

In the opening salvo, one of the bad guys was shot in the head and neck with 38 SPL +P, which knocked him out for a few minutes before he woke up and rejoined the fight.

With non-head shots, the agents either missed the bad guys' spines or didn't penetrate enough to reach their spines. As a result, 2 agents died and 5 were badly wounded effectively by one man with a Mini 14 who was eventually shot 12 times with .38 or 9mm before he died. His partner woke up, they jumped in an FBI cruiser and were about to escape when a badly wounded agent ran up and shot one in the face and the other in the chest (grazing the bad guy's spine), which ended the fight.

Reading up on that shootout has really opened my eyes to the importance of penetration and shot placement. Basically, if you don't hit someone in the spine they will very likely keep coming, and head shots are both tricky to pull off and more likely to graze the skull.

The Lucky Gunner Self Defense Ammo Test page is solid gold and I'd suggest everyone order something from them as a thanks for maintaining it. Scroll about 2/3 down the page and you'll notice that most of the .380 bullets that did expand had woefully inadequate penetration. If you look at the .380 ACP HP bullets that didn't open, you get a pretty good idea of a .380 FMJ penetration. I'm confident that a well-placed .380 FMJ would penetrate over 20 inches, which should be enough to reach someone's spine if I'm doing my part and shooting straight. I'm not so confident about any of the JHP .380 ammo.

EDIT: I had posted links to some of the topics above, but because I'm new it won't let me post them, so y'all will have to 'google' if you are interested.
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