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9MM Catastrophic Case Failure

This is a discussion on 9MM Catastrophic Case Failure within the Ammo Dump forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; Originally Posted by Iowegan Waveform, Things like this happen if the gun fires before the bolt goes all the way to battery. You can test ...


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Old October 11th, 2016, 04:59 PM   #31
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
Waveform, Things like this happen if the gun fires before the bolt goes all the way to battery. You can test the gun and see if it fires (dry fires) when the bolt is not in full battery by pulling the charging handle all the way to the rear then start easing it forward. Pull the trigger then ease the bolt forward some more .... repeat until the bolt is finally in full battery. If the hammer trips before the bolt is in full battery ... you got a problem! Pay particular attention to the bolt distance equal to the head end section of your spent case (the one that was cut in half).

I'm not familiar with your particular carbine so I'm uncertain how it operates. Typical 9mm pistols use a delayed blowback action meaning the slide (or bolt) stays locked in the receiver until the bullet exits the muzzle .... then it unlocks and allows the slide (or bolt) to be thrust back to eject the spent case and pick up a fresh round on the way forward. Gas operated actions operate similar only they are dependent on gas pressure to push the bolt back. Your carbine may use a direct blowback action .... much like a semi auto 22 LR rifle or pistol where the bolt is not locked into the receiver at all. Although not common, sometimes direct blowback guns fires out of battery ... usually because the bolt bounced back after a round is chambered. Usually it doesn't damage anything other that create a jammed chamber.
Iowegan,

Which begs the question, what could/should one do to correct that problem...if one found it occurring in their gun?



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Old October 11th, 2016, 05:13 PM   #32
 
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I've fired 800-1000 rounds of the "FM" and "IMT" new brass ammo from Freedom and it has always run reliably and accurately from my 9mm pistols. Only the 9mm has the internal step, which is a byproduct of how they make the brass.

I'm fairly certain I'll buy more of it in the future. I just wouldn't buy reloads / remanufactured ammo that uses those cases.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 08:39 PM   #33
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Amishman44, Most centerfire semi-autos have some sort of a disconnect in the receiver that prevents the hammer from tripping until the case is fully chambered. If the parts that control the disconnect process are gummed up with powder residue and caked on oil, they will fail to work as designed. No doubt, this is the single biggest issue with all brands and models of guns. A good cleaning with Hoppie's #9 followed up with blowing the action out with canned air or an air compressor will usually fix the problem. Sometimes it is a worn or defective part .... maybe not as obvious as powder and oil pucky so the solution is to replace the part .... better yet, have a gunsmith take a look at it to make sure it is safe to shoot.

As I suspect with Waveform's carbine, it was probably a defective cartridge. Inspecting all cartridges before loading your magazine is wise but I doubt if you will find a defective case until after it has been fired. Without whaling on other members .... the best solution is to use better quality ammo. I think everyone knows, there is always a risk that a cartridge may do something it wasn't intended to do .... be it a factory load, a remanufactured load, or a home reload. As a gun owner, you have to accept this risk ..... knowing that some day you may experience a dud, an over charged cartridge, a squib, or just some weird event like Waveform's. Guns can fail too .... light primer strikes are quite common as are feeding, extraction, and ejection issues. Usually you can trouble shoot and locate the source of these problems. The bottom line is to treat your firearm with utmost respect and use decent quality ammo ...... your risk of a failure will be minimal. The worst thing you can do if you experience a serious malfunction is to keep shooting the gun. Stop and find out why and don't continue shooting until you resolve the problem.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 02:12 AM   #34
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This is a good discussion and I'm glad so many have chimed in. It's made me think through the operation of this little carbine and understand it better which is good. I intentionally did not blurt out the name of the source of the ammo in my OP because I didn't want to just throw them under the bus if perhaps it was a gun issue and not the ammo. I've bought other ammo from FM before - new and reman - and never had a problem with it in my revolvers. When I decided to put this carbine together I wanted to get some cheap plinking ammo and at 19 cents each for brass case it was certainly on the low end of the price spectrum. I'm not ready to give up on FM yet. I'll shoot up the rest of what I bought and see if I have any more issues. I still wonder if the bolt didn't bounce back at the split second the round fired. It's a pretty large and heavy bolt for such a small round and it does slam home with considerable force. OTOH I couldn't make it happen again whether I fired slow or fast or somewhere in between so I dunno. Maybe it was just a bad round.

I kept the case and box in case I wanted to contact FM about it but I'm still undecided. If it had happened in a different firearm made by a manufacturer I would be more inclined to let them know but since this happened in a DIY carbine assembled from parts sourced from a variety of places it seems like I'm more on my own here. The BCG, barrel, upper, lower, trigger assembly and buffer assembly all came from different manufacturers and were assembled by some guy at his workbench (me). Looking at it from FM's perspective I think that would raise some suspicions about the firearm.

Above all else I want to be safe. Beyond that I want to have fun, learn new things and expand my horizons a bit. Kinda why I put this little carbine together in the first place.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 03:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
Waveform, Things like this happen if the gun fires before the bolt goes all the way to battery. You can test the gun and see if it fires (dry fires) when the bolt is not in full battery by pulling the charging handle all the way to the rear then start easing it forward. Pull the trigger then ease the bolt forward some more .... repeat until the bolt is finally in full battery. If the hammer trips before the bolt is in full battery ... you got a problem! Pay particular attention to the bolt distance equal to the head end section of your spent case (the one that was cut in half).

I'm not familiar with your particular carbine so I'm uncertain how it operates. Typical 9mm pistols use a delayed blowback action meaning the slide (or bolt) stays locked in the receiver until the bullet exits the muzzle .... then it unlocks and allows the slide (or bolt) to be thrust back to eject the spent case and pick up a fresh round on the way forward. Gas operated actions operate similar only they are dependent on gas pressure to push the bolt back. Your carbine may use a direct blowback action .... much like a semi auto 22 LR rifle or pistol where the bolt is not locked into the receiver at all. Although not common, sometimes direct blowback guns fires out of battery ... usually because the bolt bounced back after a round is chambered. Usually it doesn't damage anything other that create a jammed chamber.
9mm AR's are a direct blow back. To slow or delay the bolt when firing its best to use a heavier buffer. At a minimum 5.8 oz with a heavy spring and there are buffers up to 8 oz. If you use a standard carbine buffer it can depending on ammo tear the case and are also known for busting the bolt latch. One of my uppers for my SBR is a 8.5" 9mm. Suppressed with 147gn handloads running between 980-1000 fps the 5.8oz buffer works great.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 04:46 AM   #36
 
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9mm+p++++++

9mm+P+++++
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Old October 12th, 2016, 05:17 AM   #37
 
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Waveform, I want to thank you for posting about your issue. At the very least, I know I wasn't the only one to have this happen, and I've learned of a new head stamp to look for.
I have no ill will towards FM. In my dealings with them I found them to have a top notch CS. If for no other reason than a heads up, I would contact them.
If nothing else, they'll at least have a lot# for their records. And maybe they can figure out why this is happening.
I personally have no issues with their ammo, just their head stamp so I avoid it.
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Old October 12th, 2016, 02:15 PM   #38
 
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I know I'm late to weigh in, but I had a similar issue with my 10mm AR while shooting suppressed. It's a direct blow back action and I didn't have a heavy enough buffer to keep the bolt closed long enough to let pressure subside to a safe level. The suppressor didn't help matters. I now have the heaviest buffer I could find and a stack of washers under the spring to bring it closer and prevent bolt stop breaks like this too.

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Old October 12th, 2016, 02:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDelambre View Post
I know I'm late to weigh in, but I had a similar issue with my 10mm AR while shooting suppressed. It's a direct blow back action and I didn't have a heavy enough buffer to keep the bolt closed long enough to let pressure subside to a safe level. The suppressor didn't help matters. I now have the heaviest buffer I could find and a stack of washers under the spring to bring it closer and prevent bolt stop breaks like this too.

Interesting and thanks for adding to the discussion. Looks like you had some interesting experiences with your 10MM AR.

When I sourced out my components for this carbine I selected a buffer assembly (tube, spring, buffer) from Kaw Valley Precision that was set up for 9MM applications. The buffer has a stamp that says "7.5" so I'm guessing that's weight. Is that heavy? I don't have enough experience to say myself but it's not running a standard AR buffer and spring.

I had an unused red dot sitting around so I put it on the carbine, grabbed another 100 rounds of the FM reman ammo and went back to range. The optic was much better for me than the open sights (once I got it dialed in) and the rifle ate up the ammo without a single burp. So I've now run 200 rounds through it with only the one incident at about round 30. Hopefully this holds out to be an isolated incident.

I must say I REALLY like this gun........
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Old October 12th, 2016, 02:43 PM   #40
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waveform View Post
Interesting and thanks for adding to the discussion. Looks like you had some interesting experiences with your 10MM AR.

When I sourced out my components for this carbine I selected a buffer assembly (tube, spring, buffer) from Kaw Valley Precision that was set up for 9MM applications. The buffer has a stamp that says "7.5" so I'm guessing that's weight. Is that heavy? I don't have enough experience to say myself but it's not running a standard AR buffer and spring.

I had an unused red dot sitting around so I put it on the carbine, grabbed another 100 rounds of the FM reman ammo and went back to range. The optic was much better for me than the open sights (once I got it dialed in) and the rifle ate up the ammo without a single burp. So I've now run 200 rounds through it with only the one incident at about round 30. Hopefully this holds out to be an isolated incident.

I must say I REALLY like this gun........
Yes that should be the weight, 7.5 oz. That's heavier than a standard buffer. You should be fine and it sounds like a single bad 9mm case in your issue.
In my 10mm AR I ran over 50 rounds through it first without the suppressor, then within the next ten that happened and ended the day. The suppressor increased the back pressure and the buffer couldn't keep the bolt closed.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 10:27 AM   #41
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowegan View Post
I know a Ruger 10/22 is not related to this issue but it does not have a disconnector of any type. The hammer can be tripped as soon as the bolt travels about a 1/4 of the way. Ruger designers assumed the super fast cycle rate of the bolt will prevent blown cases .... and about 99.999 % of the time it does, however you can still get a blown case if the cartridge fails to fully chamber. That's why I asked the OP to check his carbine and see if the hammer would trip before the bolt went into full battery. Based on cntrydawwwg's post .... more than likely it was just a bad case. 35k psi chamber pressure cuts like a laser beam!
BTW, Ive checked my JR Carbine for that and THANKS for that info..

It WILL NOT trip the firing pin at all unless the bolt is fully closed. . The way the trigger reset is, and the fact the trigger seems " dead" at any bolt position besides fully closed, I dont see how a premature firing pin trip would be possible. At least on this rifle.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 01:51 PM   #42
 
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GONRA would sure like to know the manufacturer of the brass in DDelambre's foto.
Must be Really Good Brass to "not completely KABOOM” but just "swell up" like that!
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Old October 13th, 2016, 02:32 PM   #43
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DCD327,
Quote:
It WILL NOT trip the firing pin at all unless the bolt is fully closed.
That's the way all semi autos should be designed .... but not all are equipped with a disconnect, which is why I asked the OP to check his carbine.

I would also like to see all semi-autos that use pistol cartridges have some sort of a delayed blowback system .... but it seems only pistols have delayed blowback as evidenced by lock notches on the barrel like a 1911 pistol. Rifles (and carbines) do not have a moveable barrel so it makes it much harder to do a delayed blowback design. I'm surprised 9mm carbines aren't gas operated .... guess there just isn't enough gas pressure to make things happen.

Here's the unavoidable issues with direct blowback. First of all, the recoil spring has to be roughly twice the tension as a gun with delayed blowback chambered for the same cartridge. This causes several issues .... one being it's harder to pull the operating handle back. Another is the stronger spring can drive the bolt home so hard that it will cause bullets to jump crimp .... much like a kinetic bullet puller. However the most important issue is "bolt bounce" .... which simply means the bolt is thrust forward so hard that when it strikes the rear of the barrel, it bounces back ... pulling the case with it while there is still high chamber pressure. It is not unusual to get a "snake that swallowed a gopher" look ... just like the 10mm cartridge in DDelambre's post where the extracted case was not fully supported while pressure was still present. Bolt bounce can also result in the OP's condition where the high chamber pressure cuts like a knife in butter. It's really a fluke when this happens because of the timing for the trigger sear. You would be very hard pressed to pull the trigger on purpose just as the bolt slams into the barrel .... but it can and does happen on rare occasions ... just by coincidence. Based on cntrydawwwg's post, I still think Waveform got a bad cartridge but I guess we will never know for sure.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 07:11 AM   #44
 
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Quote:
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DCD327, That's the way all semi autos should be designed .... but not all are equipped with a disconnect, which is why I asked the OP to check his carbine.

I would also like to see all semi-autos that use pistol cartridges have some sort of a delayed blowback system .... but it seems only pistols have delayed blowback as evidenced by lock notches on the barrel like a 1911 pistol. Rifles (and carbines) do not have a moveable barrel so it makes it much harder to do a delayed blowback design. I'm surprised 9mm carbines aren't gas operated .... guess there just isn't enough gas pressure to make things happen.

Here's the unavoidable issues with direct blowback. First of all, the recoil spring has to be roughly twice the tension as a gun with delayed blowback chambered for the same cartridge. This causes several issues .... one being it's harder to pull the operating handle back. Another is the stronger spring can drive the bolt home so hard that it will cause bullets to jump crimp .... much like a kinetic bullet puller. However the most important issue is "bolt bounce" .... which simply means the bolt is thrust forward so hard that when it strikes the rear of the barrel, it bounces back ... pulling the case with it while there is still high chamber pressure. It is not unusual to get a "snake that swallowed a gopher" look ... just like the 10mm cartridge in DDelambre's post where the extracted case was not fully supported while pressure was still present. Bolt bounce can also result in the OP's condition where the high chamber pressure cuts like a knife in butter. It's really a fluke when this happens because of the timing for the trigger sear. You would be very hard pressed to pull the trigger on purpose just as the bolt slams into the barrel .... but it can and does happen on rare occasions ... just by coincidence. Based on cntrydawwwg's post, I still think Waveform got a bad cartridge but I guess we will never know for sure.

That creates yet another question. My JRC has the factory trigger, which does have, what I could best describe as a weird trigger reset. ( compared to an AR15) , Its long and has an audible click. You are NOT going to bump fire this carbine. But,, these carbines are built to be AR15 compatible, and accept an AR15 trigger group.

I dont plan on changing it, ( if it aint broke, dont fix it ) , but,,,,

I wonder if an AR 15 trigger would change where it goes into batttery?

Last edited by DCD327; October 14th, 2016 at 07:16 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2016, 12:57 PM   #45
 
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GONRA would sure like to know the manufacturer of the brass in DDelambre's foto.
Must be Really Good Brass to "not completely KABOOM” but just "swell up" like that!
Factory Hornady 10mm 180gr XTP. I saved the bulged brass and remaining rounds in the box with the lot number just in case it was the ammo but I don't think it is.
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